Over sized nose on a bore rider

fiver

Well-Known Member
heck Mike I couldn't even tell you any of that stuff.
they are just an AR rifle to me.
my idea of an ar is a full stock and a flat top with a removable rear sight handle, fancy sliding things and hand tearing rail thingy's are not an option.
I don't even want the forward assist thing.
it just pokes me in the back when I carry it hunting [and is only good for getting the mis-fed/fitting round more stuck than it already is]
a glow in the dark front sight is the only add on 'tactical' option I am interested in.
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
So, of the currently available moulds what do you suggest for an AR in 223?
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
rcbs 0-55s or the saeco 60grain.
I hybridized them basically for the hm-2 mold, then changed the curve on the nose to correspond closer to the 5.56's throat shape.
going heavier than the 60 gr weight range takes away the ability of the bullets to work in the slower twist rifles like the 22-250/220 swift.

I use the same load I use in the 223 in both of those rounds but size the hm mold to 227 to get the ball seat to scuff the exposed front drive band, it also allows the 2185 diameter nose base to stop just short of touching the rifling, while the further out part of the nose is sitting right in the rifling touching the lands on all 4 sides.
no actual engraving takes place [until the boolit moves forward] but it has 2 points of contact in a throat that ain't all shot out.
if the throat is pushed forward the scuff of the drive band points the nose in the right direction allowing that slight taper to help align the boolit in the centerline of the barrel on the move, same as it works in the 5.56 throat.

remember I polished out the same nose section of my rcbs mold that I modified in the hm-2 mold drawings.
that little area right in front of the forward drive band needs some strengthening and slight diameter change [.001] to help with the AR's tapered throat, and to help it deal with acceleration forces.
 

Ian

Notorious member
...
now this ain't the only way to get things done.
anyone that has read what I do to get an AR-15 shooting in the 2800 fps area will quickly recognize that what I write there and what I write here are completely two different approaches [almost]
I still went to the slower end of the powder spectrum but approached boolit fitment and alignment differently. [look at the HM-2 223 boolit I err 'someone' designed versus the accurate 165-A]
why?
because the AR system has to have some slop built into the system for It to work properly, it is a moving breathing machine where nothing is exactly static.
so changing where and how the boolit got/gets it's barrel alignment, and acceleration timing is critical in pushing that envelope while maintaining accuracy.
you give up accuracy for functioning and steal back everything you can get through alloy, diameter, case fitment, and design.
you put those same rounds in a bolt rifle [with neck sized cases] and you suddenly cut group size in half, with room to sneak up on more....

Funny, I started to bring that up last night to point out some of the differences between the pre-align and wiggle/bump methods of getting the bullet into the bore absolutely straight. Folks need to realize there are several different ways to approach bullet fitment so it achieves the same ends. Which method works best for a given system depends on how much parallel the throat has, discrepancies in chamber neck, and the type of action. I wish your notes on loading for the AR hadn't disappeared.
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
My AR has a well worm throat. It has a barrel that has seen around 4K full power loads in competition.
So if understand right I could polish out the area in front of the drive band on the 55 RCBS. Make that area fatter and smooth the transition to the front band.

What do you think of the MP NATO bullet? I'm looking for use only in a 7 twist AR in 223.
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
ohh one little tip for the AR's when I wanted to make the jacketed bullets for my stag 6-H I looked for a point form die that was a 6-7s ogive shape.
good luck there.
then I tried out the die I have had sitting around an old C&H press die is has that 6-7s shape depending on the weight I make my bullets.

https://www.sierrabullets.com/store/product.cfm/sn/1370/224-dia-63-gr-SMP

this is 2 grs lighter but super close to what I come up with, it's also a very good fit to the 5.56's throat shape.
kinda goofy looking target/varmint bullet for sure but the groups on paper are what dictates goofy not how things look.
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
uhh the mp nato is not one on my radar.
I have a hard time just looking at a picture of something and judging it, I need a basic outline or numbers to actually judge from.
that is why I have never bought an mp mold.
I had no hard firm numbers to go from and had to rely on someone else's judgments to sell me on something that is supposed to fit my rifle.
when designing a mold for sale you have to rely on saami drawings and the few specimens you have on hand or your friends have, and go slightly on the small side to insure they will chamber in everything.
this was something I was working on with the HM-2 molds, get the critical dimensions right and leave the body area large enough to work down without causing damage to the boolit in the process.
this is where the lube groove design [wall angles] come into play you have to have a place other than the base for displaced metal to flow and it has to flow evenly and smoothly.
Dang I wish Tom Meyers were a member here he explains it better than I do.

one of the things I recommend a new [any] shooter does is to make a slug of their throat then trace it out on paper and measure different points along the slug writing them on the paper.
this gives you something solid to hold and something to actually look at once you understand what that supposed funnel really looks like and it's tapers and [how short your brass really is] where the parallels begin you start to understand fluid motion, how metal gets displaced and where it goes a little bit better.
 

Ian

Notorious member
It took me a long time to understand lube groove angle. Lots more to it than holding lube. The guys designing minimalist lube grooves because they think they're improving the function of the bullet somehow are not considering fluid motion at all, or are thinking that somehow they will be able to avoid it.
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
You could invite Tom to join here. Just sayin.....
 
H

HARRYMPOPE

Guest
I've been doing quite a bit of research back and forth in the archives over on the cb site on bullet design. I saw a couple of posts on bore riders that caught my attention.
It seems they were able to go faster than before with the same bore riding bullet by increasing the bore riding nose 1000th bigger than bore dia.

A case in point would be a bore rider in 35 cal. with a nose of .350 and a bore dia. of .350. Is there any advantage in increasing the nose to .351? Any disadvantages?

My 358009 noe clone has a bore riding nose of .350 and my bore dia. is .350 and it shoots great from 1275 to 2200 fps., so i'm not about to do any lapping on that one just to see. Might have one made in the future though, depending on any answers i get here from folks that may have some experience with an oversized bore rider nose.
Just curious about all the things i've been reading about on design lately....also very cautious lol!

I shoot an RCBS 250 sp in my 35 Whelen at 1900 with wheel weight.the nose is big at about .352.I have a taper/bump die for my loading press that brings it to .350 and it chambers easier and shoots a bit better.the die is set up to taper the body driving band from .358 at about 1.5 feg to the .350 nose.I have one in 30 as well.Erik at HollowPointMold makes a copy in .30 of the Eagan "T" die that goes in a lube sizer.you run lubed and sized bullets nose first for nose and body re dimensioning.
It's a handy tool.he might make one in .35.
 

Outpost75

Active Member
To determine the correct bullet diameter for a rifle, the groove diameter of the barrel is NOT the determinant.

INSTEAD you want to measure the throat, or the unrifled portion of the barrel forcing cone or "ball seat" ahead of the case mouth, before the rifling starts. The best way to do this is from a chamber cast or upset throat slug.

Most accurate for measurement purposes and easiest is to upset a throat slug, or as some people call it a "pound cast."
Start with a sized case with DEAD primer in its pocket. The way I do this is to heat the lead pot, then fill the sized case with DEAD primer plugging the flash hole, and generously overflowing the case.

After the lead cools, clean all spilled lead off the case exterior, then file the exposed lead FLUSH to the case mouth.

Take a piece of PURE lead buckshot or short chunk of pure lead wire and drop it into the EMPTY chamber, letting it fall into the throat of its own weight. (With very long throats you can use a longer piece of wire or a SOFT bullet with long bore-riding nose and not a long grooved section).

Insert your lead-filled dummy case and GENTLY tap it into the chamber using a piece of brass rod until you can close the breech. You are using the lead filled dummy case to force the lead slug into the ORIGIN of rifling. In short throated barrels it helps to drive the slug first into the origin of rifling, far enough to chamber the lead dummy behind it, then close the bolt and upset the slug against the lead dummy using a Brownell Squibb Rod threaded onto the end of your cleaning rod.

You don't need to use a hammer, just let the weight of the rod make many light taps of the squibb rod against the slug until you get a clear "ringing" sound. It need go no farther!

What you want to measure is the diameter of the UNRIFLED portion of the chamber forward of the case neck BEFORE the rifling starts! Extract the dummy and GENTLY tap the lead slug out and measure it. THAT is the diameter you want to size your bullets to!

Using Cerrosafe, etc. is more trouble and you then need to compensate for shrinkage, etc.

The upset pure, dead-lead slug is exact and straight forward!

If you forget EVERYTHING you ever read about slugging barrels and simply cast chambers from now on, and get bullets to FIT THE THROAT you will be far happier in the long run.

The limiting factor in safe bullet diameter is neck clearance. You MUST measure the neck diameter of the chamber on the cast. Most chambers have enough clearance ahead of a fired case mouth that a properly upset throat slug will get you a portion of the case mouth and its transition angle to the throat or ball seat, so that you can measure neck diameter at the mouth and throat diameter of the ball seat.

The loaded cartridge neck diameter must not be larger than 0.0015" SMALLER than the chamber cast at that point, to ensure safe expansion for bullet release. This is absolutely essential for custom target barrels which often have tight-necked chambers which require neck-turned cases. As a general rule the largest diameter of cast bullet which chambers and extracts freely, without resistance, will shoot best.

For instance in a .308 Winchester target rifle with .339" tight-necked chamber and using case necks turned to 0.012," maximum bullet diameter is determined by"

[neck (.339")-2(neck wall thickness 0.012)] - 0.0015 = 0.3135" for a "fitted neck" in which fired cases do not require sizing, but bullets will be held by case springback only. For necked sized fixed ammo, subtract another 0.0015" or .312" IF the chamber ball seat is that large. In a new barrel chambered for jacketed bullets, probably not. Min. SAAMI throat as on the pressure test barrel is 0.3105".

Unless you know your throat is smaller, try .310". If the barrel has been fired more than 1500 rounds with full power jacketed loads .311" will be better. If you shot a couple seasons season of highpower with it, .312" will fit just fine.

John Ardito set all of his CBA benchrest records shooting .312" bullets in his .308 Win. and wildcat .30 cal. rifles.

This is seldom a problem in the Russian M91/30s and Chinese copies chambers are notoriously sloppy!

In a typical Finnish M39 7.62x54 chamber the chamber neck is 0.340". Typical case mouth wall thickness of Norma or Sako commercial brass is 0.013," so .340" minus twice neck thickness (0.026") = .314", minus 0.0015 for safe expansion = .3125" max. bullet for a typical Finn chamber in an M24, M27, M28, M28/30 or M39.

It is not unusual for WW2-era Russian and later Chicom rifles to have throats as large as .316" and groove diameters of .314". If you expect anything resembling normal accuracy you MUST cast your chamber, measure it, and then buy a mold which fits your THROAT, not the groove diameter of the barrel.

As a general rule the largest diameter of cast bullet which chambers and extracts freely, without resistance, will shoot best. For most Finnish rifles this is .311-.312" and for Russian and Chicom rifles .313-.314".

Use .30 cal. gaschecks, pressing them on by hand and then pushing the base of the bullet against a table edge until the gascheck is bottomed against the bullet shank. Only then size the bullet. Otherwise the GC will not be seated squarely on the base of the bullet and any hope for accuracy goes out the window.

The Lee C312-155-2R was designed for the 7.62x39 and also gives good results in most 7.62x54 rifles when cast 12 BHN or harder, sized to THROAT diameter, and loaded with 16 grs. of #2400 for plinking, or 30 grs. of 4895, 4064, RL15 or Varget, if you want a heavier hunting load.
 
H

HARRYMPOPE

Guest
Fantastic post. When I shot one of my first cast bullet Association matches I had that conversation with one of the most successful benchrest shooters of the time. He laughed when I was talking about the diameter of the barrel and such .he said slug throat with soft bullet and get the biggest "F in" bullet in there you can chamber and shut up.
That little fat lee bullet it was the one he recommended to me.(mine is an nei 72)That is my go-to 30 caliber bullet in fact right now in a little Ruger scout rifle 308 it is top dog.
 

Ian

Notorious member
Fantastic post indeed, thank you Outpost75. I eventually learned the hard way, with some tips from a few places, to do exactly what you suggest here. Doing so took much of the mystery out of achieving small groups. It is unfortunate that "conventional wisdom", such as found in most of the respected cast bullet loading manuals, directs the handloader to use less effective loading techniques.
 

Rick

Moderator
Staff member
That is indeed an outstanding post & valuable information, the clearest explanation on making AND the reason for a pound cast I've seen.

This thread is now a sticky.
 

45 2.1

Active Member
Outpost75 did an excellent job..... however, much more chamber and leade information can be obtained if you anneal the neck and trim off at least 1/8" off it. Leave the lead a good 1/4" below the trimmed neck and turn a slug to fit in that neck that sticks out of it about 1-1/4" or slightly more. That way you get the end of the chamber, the actual chamber neck diameter, leade tapers and diameters and origin taper of the rifling besides some other esoteric stuff.
 

James W. Miner

Active Member
I made a mistake when I made one 30-30 mold. I got the nose too fat and could not chamber them in a Marlin.
I bought a lee push through size die and lapped it to .301" and rigged it to size just the nose. Worked like a charm and shoots good.
I would not make them too tight. No sense looking for a few fps anyway.