Paper cartridgee construction for use in cannon

[Snakeoil]

I did a search and did not find anything on paper cartridges. I did a Google search and found some helpful stuff. All of it was for rifle/pistol cartridges. The bore on my cannon is about 1.5 inches. My basic question is regarding the combustibility of the paper used.

Info I have found recommend nitrate paper, which can be made and I know how to make it. But another suggests using Curling Papers, which are used to set womens hair. One shooter says he uses them as-is with no nitrating and had not had an issue with the chambers having paper left behind. The cannon chamber is huge compared to a .44 pistol.

I made some cartridges last night using newspaper. Fired one and it left about half the paper cartridge half-way up the bore. Easy to remove with my worm. My goal is to be able to load without having to deal with loose powder. The cannon is a party pleaser and I'm always asked when it's coming out.

So, I have to believe that there are muzzle loaders here that use paper cartridges and I'm curious what your experience has been with using paper like curling paper or cigarette papers.

By the way, no projectiles are being fired. I use a 1/2 thick piece of florist foam over the powder as the wad to compress the charge. This is what we used over BP blanks used in pistols, rifles and shotguns when I was doing exhibition shoot-outs with a group that did it for small down field days and such. Zero mass coming out of the gun when fired.

 

[KeithB]

Where would you get cigarette papers that big other than from the cover of an old Big Bambu record?

 

[RBHarter]

Most of the big cartridges I think use the tear dump and stuff the bag for wadding method .

 

[Pistolero]

I used to live in N Va, right off of the Manassas battlefield. We went down to their reinactments a couple
of times. The first time, the cannoneers off to one side were REALLY impressive, from 200 yds away.
Huge gouts of flame and beautiful quanties of white smoke rolling away. Afterwards, I walked down
to them as they loaded up to go and looked over the guns. I asked one guy how much black powder
it took to make that impressive flash and roar. He laughed and said about 1/4 lb is all we use. I expressed
my amazement at that small quantity producing those spectacular results. He walked over to the truck
and grabbed a aluminum foil "log" and showed it to me. Just under bore size.....filled with flour. He
said that was their trick. 1/4 lb of BP, then a aluminum foil cartridge of flour (this was a ~3" ish bore
original cannon, about 6-7" long, just sized to go down the bore. He said they rammed it and when
the BP blasted the flour out, most of the roar, flash and smoke was from the flour, WAY cheaper than
using enough BP to get similar results. I bet the aluminum foil burns up and helps the flash, too.

Bill

 

[creosote]

Ill be trying the flour trick.
Thank you.
I ruptured both eardrums one 4th.
Filled balloons with acetylene oxygen mix. Taped a cannon fuse on and light.
All I can figure was the balloon had a leak. ? As soon as the fire got close.....boom.
They will shake Windows a block away. VERY nice concution.
Note; eyes & ears!

 

[Fiddler]

The Rev. War group I belonged used foil 'cartridges' for the powder charge. The foil does not burn up, you'll need a worm to remove some of the remnants.
That's really interesting about the flour creating a dust explosion.

 

[Pistolero]

You're welcome. Always happy to pass along something I learned from someone who actually
knows. That was probably about 1975 or so. Seems like they had 2-3 ft of flame blowing out
as a muzzle blast and a 5-6 ft diameter ball of very dense white smoke rolling away. Great showmanship.

And, yes, basically a grain dust explosion at the muzzle with the particles traveling very fast so that
is probably how they get the great gout of flame at the muzzle. Really loud boom, too.

Since the dust burns in the air, probably no added pressure inside the gun, since the burning
is pretty much/mostly outside.

Bill

 

[Snakeoil]

Hmmm... that flour trick would probably make for a good crowd pleaser. I may have to try it at the party on Saturday.

I'm aware of the reenactors using foil cartridges. Watched them load at a CW event several years ago. The newspaper worked fine. I'm just trying to eliminate the risk of errant embers in the chamber. Although I don't expect to do any rapid firing.

I'm going to try the curling papers. Two glued together should do the trick.

But back to my original question, does anyone use theses untreated curling or cigarette papers in their muzzle loaders and see any remnants after firing?

 

[Snakeoil]

Decided to try nitrating paper. One of the links on the web everyone seems to send folks to, talked about using newspaper. That is what I made my first cartridges from. So, I bought some stump remover and nitrated a several sheets of different paper. First try was not really successful. There was a 1% content in stump remover that gave the impression that the solution was saturated. It wasn't. So, the first tests created a paper that would burn steadily, but very slowly and more like punk burns than a fuse burns. Second batch used up the rest of the 1 lb of stump remover and when the paper dried, you could see the crystalline structure on the surface of the paper.

A word of caution to those who want to do this. Bonide makes a stump remover that is NOT potassium nitrate. It is some other stuff. Might work, but I did not try it. I used Osborn's and it is 99% KNO4. The 1% of other stuff has to be skimmed off as you dissolve more KNO4 into the boiling water.

I made a short video comparing the burning of regular newspaper and nitrated newspaper. You can see it here.

 

[creosote]

Good info. Thank you.

 

[JWFilips]

18th Century wise: The Continental Line and British Brigade only allow Aluminum foil wrapped Cannon cartridges and Plastic Straw quills as primers! Worked with them for 25 years! My "Ginger" swivel gun is always fired that way.
Aluminum foil cartridges are a safety factor for reloading in the field. Not as much residual in the breech for a "fire on load"
However: The swabber & the vent tender still have to do their job corectly!

 

[RBHarter]

Spectracide is also 99% . I used it for BP .

 

[JWFilips]

SnakeOil,
If you need any "real" help with cannons Let me know! I have fired some big boys ( with a good crew) They are nothing to take lightly!
If you understand Flintlock rifles..... Well they have nothing in common ( except for black powder)!
There is a big danger in loading an firing ordinance ( especially the second shot)
(I have been given the Saint Barbra's Medal for what that is worth)

 

[Snakeoil]

Thanks for the offer. I have a serious respect for BP cannons. I never fire back to back shots for the reason you mention. I fire over a lake so foil is not an option.

Fired the gun several today times and the nitrated newsprint work as hoped. No remnants left behind.

There is really no need to glue the cartridge. A good overlap and then simply twist the ends. I put the florist foam wad in the cartridge.

 

[358156 hp]

Would flash paper work, or does it burn too fast for your needs? I reread up on it, and it seems pretty straightforward to make.

Still, if you're happy with your results with nitrated paper, there's no reason to change anyway.

 

[Pistolero]

I used to help a friend launch the fireworks for our small town. My job as a teenager was to take a special tool
(stick with a sharpened nail in it) and pull out any remnants of burning paper from each mortar tube after
a shell was launched. First, inspect in the dark, looking for any tiny glowing embers....if any are seen pull the
remains of the paper shell out with the special tool. THEN use a flashlight to look in and double check an empty
mortar tube.
And when I declared the tube "SAFE!" my friend would lower another mortar "shell" in and light it.

Yes, no burning embers remaining is IMPORTANT. Easier to check at night.

Bill

 

[358156 hp]

Or return to the swab like the Navy did in the olden, olden, days. Didn't the older breechloader still have the chamber area swabbed even after WWII? It's been a long time since I thought about cannons.

 

[Pistolero]

Yes, the wet swab was used for breechloaders. I have seen the swab and the bucket in photos of the gun crew equipement
in various historic situations. Good way to be really certain of no remaining embers when loading something like
30 lbs of black powder into some of those monster old muzzle loading cannon.

 

[Snakeoil]

I would expect the Navy to swab simply because the big guns do not use a cartridge, they use cloth bags of powder. We saw what could happen when the turret blew on the Iowa.

I have no need to fire shots back to back. So, I don't have a big concern. I'll be a minimum of a half hour will pass between shots. I still check just to make sure. I even checked when I was pouring loose powder down the muzzle and ramming a wad down after it. Complacency is what gets folks hurt.

Yeah... it's okay... DAMN!

 

[358156 hp]

I would expect the Navy to swab simply because the big guns do not use a cartridge, they use cloth bags of powder. We saw what could happen when the turret blew on the Iowa.

I have no need to fire shots back to back. So, I don't have a big concern. I'll be a minimum of a half hour will pass between shots. I still check just to make sure. I even checked when I was pouring loose powder down the muzzle and ramming a wad down after it. Complacency is what gets folks hurt.

Yeah... it's okay... DAMN!

Yup. Famous last words.