Possibly my best cast bullet group ever!
- Thread starter JWFilips
- Start date
quicksylver
Well-Known Member
Try a swipe or two with a bore snake or dry patch and less BLL...but I noticed the 467 holes are dark around the edges ....just saying....
fiver
Well-Known Member
Ian seen it too.
bump the load or get it ignited hotter.
the up and down I think will correct itself, and a little more bench time with the rifle will also help.
your learning a new skill set.
try finding where your cheek goes and put a piece of tape there.
it's okay if it is against the edge of the tape as long as you can feel it.
bump the load or get it ignited hotter.
the up and down I think will correct itself, and a little more bench time with the rifle will also help.
your learning a new skill set.
try finding where your cheek goes and put a piece of tape there.
it's okay if it is against the edge of the tape as long as you can feel it.
JWFilips
Well-Known Member
Thanks guys, I will test both ways ( up load and also same load and rifle primer)
I feel now I may have my cheek height correct but I feel I still wandering on the stock.
Dan, yes you are correct the 311467 bullet lube grooves are all filled plus rolled in BLL! I have to take some lube out of my lube pans to drop the level on that bullet
If all goes well I will put these suggestions into practice Friday morning
I feel now I may have my cheek height correct but I feel I still wandering on the stock.
Dan, yes you are correct the 311467 bullet lube grooves are all filled plus rolled in BLL! I have to take some lube out of my lube pans to drop the level on that bullet
If all goes well I will put these suggestions into practice Friday morning
Another,sort of "unfair advantage" (famous book title) is;
Try to nail down your bench manners,although the same works for field work.....meaning,pre shot routine.This is for dry fire practice.
Now,lets say you have a 1/2 dz,very distinctive "steps" on the routine.Can't use the follow through on this one but,anywhere along the previous 5(in this example)....
you should be able to stop.
We can use a hunting scenario,you've done everything right enough on the preshot stages and are halfway through the trigger squeeze and the buck moves/farts/does sumthin.You should have enough control over the process that you can stop the pull.
It's a way of practicing that gives your brain positive input vs willy nilly throw it up,yank the trigger.
Try to nail down your bench manners,although the same works for field work.....meaning,pre shot routine.This is for dry fire practice.
Now,lets say you have a 1/2 dz,very distinctive "steps" on the routine.Can't use the follow through on this one but,anywhere along the previous 5(in this example)....
you should be able to stop.
We can use a hunting scenario,you've done everything right enough on the preshot stages and are halfway through the trigger squeeze and the buck moves/farts/does sumthin.You should have enough control over the process that you can stop the pull.
It's a way of practicing that gives your brain positive input vs willy nilly throw it up,yank the trigger.
quicksylver
Well-Known Member
JW...at your velocities only the bottom 2 or three grooves need to be filled..one drop of BLL is enough for 10 bullets if you need it at all...if you plan lube then size the lube will migrate up on the the bullet nose as you handle them anyways
quicksylver
Well-Known Member
Try it the other way
JWFilips
Well-Known Member
OK so today I shot implementing the suggestions of changing powder charge and /or primers
I didn't shoot a comparison of the plain based version of my Ranch Dog; just the same powder charge with CCI rifle primers
I did shoot both suggestions for comparison with my Gas Checked Ranch Dog as well as the Hollow Point GC 311467
Since the 311467s were already "over lubed" I shot them as is to compare to my pervious targets
(BTW the 311467 target bottom left was the last I shot & I have no Idea why it went wild however there was a bunch of grease spots all over those targets!)
comments appreciated
Jim
I didn't shoot a comparison of the plain based version of my Ranch Dog; just the same powder charge with CCI rifle primers
I did shoot both suggestions for comparison with my Gas Checked Ranch Dog as well as the Hollow Point GC 311467
Since the 311467s were already "over lubed" I shot them as is to compare to my pervious targets
(BTW the 311467 target bottom left was the last I shot & I have no Idea why it went wild however there was a bunch of grease spots all over those targets!)
comments appreciated
Jim
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Ian
Notorious member
The rifle primers took out the vertical with the smaller powder charge. My estimate for 6.6 with LRP was too much, that went over the launch pressure window and started stringing horizontally and yawing, so looks like 6.0 and LRP is the ticket for this combo. See how the primer change was the exact equivalent of 1.0 grain of powder in your case? The groups closed up and got round (hit a node). With too much powder and the rifle primer, you got horizontal stringing, a sure sign of having passed the node.
Loob Boogers. Ahh yes. Loob boogers on 100 yard targets, together with a marked increase in group size and lower ambient temperatures, is what got me started on the quest for a better lube all those years ago. I was using Felix lube and below 50°F, groups would open up considerably. When I noticed the lube flecks on the paper, a lightbulb went on in my head and I went back and added some Vaseline to the lube to soften it up and make it less adhesive. Results? Groups returned to their hot-weather state and the boogers disappeared.
Ben's Red uses a grease which is loaded with polybutene stickifier. This chemical is what makes bar and chain oil stringy like hot cheese. Too much of it is not good (as in lubing all the grooves of a Loverin bullet) makes the lube stick to the bullets too well and the lube stick to itself too well (cohesion) unless the pressure and velocity is pretty high. The fix would be what Dan suggested, lubing fewer grooves...or I would say try a different lube, something like 50/50 beeswax and Vaseline for your low-velocity loads. The gas checked bullets might like a different powder, too. Also remember that gas checked bullets at low velocity need very, very little lube and adding more than necessary to a low-pressure system usually is a detriment.
Loob Boogers. Ahh yes. Loob boogers on 100 yard targets, together with a marked increase in group size and lower ambient temperatures, is what got me started on the quest for a better lube all those years ago. I was using Felix lube and below 50°F, groups would open up considerably. When I noticed the lube flecks on the paper, a lightbulb went on in my head and I went back and added some Vaseline to the lube to soften it up and make it less adhesive. Results? Groups returned to their hot-weather state and the boogers disappeared.
Ben's Red uses a grease which is loaded with polybutene stickifier. This chemical is what makes bar and chain oil stringy like hot cheese. Too much of it is not good (as in lubing all the grooves of a Loverin bullet) makes the lube stick to the bullets too well and the lube stick to itself too well (cohesion) unless the pressure and velocity is pretty high. The fix would be what Dan suggested, lubing fewer grooves...or I would say try a different lube, something like 50/50 beeswax and Vaseline for your low-velocity loads. The gas checked bullets might like a different powder, too. Also remember that gas checked bullets at low velocity need very, very little lube and adding more than necessary to a low-pressure system usually is a detriment.
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Ian
Notorious member
The longer Loverin bullet may not like the 12 twist. I've shot 247-grain bullets from a 12 twist at popgun velocity and hit what I was shooting at 100 yards, but never put them on paper to see if they yawed. 220 grains in a ten twist is also marginal at low speeds, in my experience. 180-ish SHOULD be fine in a 12, but each system is different.
quicksylver
Well-Known Member
Yup ...what he said....powder night be too fast for those little bands..try sizing the 467 up .001 thou.
fiver
Well-Known Member
I'm going to take a slightly different tact here.
the top 2 are nothing more than slight aiming errors, this is quite common when the poi and poa are different the further apart they are the more it shows up.
[smiley face frowny face]
take that slight left/right out of both groups and you have one big hole on both, maybe a little up and down error away from a nice round hole.
the bottom one is lube and velocity.
too much of one and too little of the other.
been there done that got the dirty paper towels covered in lube.
the top 2 are nothing more than slight aiming errors, this is quite common when the poi and poa are different the further apart they are the more it shows up.
[smiley face frowny face]
take that slight left/right out of both groups and you have one big hole on both, maybe a little up and down error away from a nice round hole.
the bottom one is lube and velocity.
too much of one and too little of the other.
been there done that got the dirty paper towels covered in lube.
Ian
Notorious member
There's one on top and two more. The 6 grain load printed the same top and middle right, the 7 grain middle left with pistol primers shifted to the group to the right but printed about the same size group. Agree on the bottom ones, I'd switch to 2400 or something and goober up some paper towels. I'd also skip the BLL overcoat on the gas checked ones...use one of the other, not both.
JWFilips
Well-Known Member
You guys are a big help to me figuring out what has been happening. I'm actually starting to see and understand it!
Besides the fact the the 3rd set of targets (bottom 2) did have a lot of lube on them I shot the right hand one first and started to get excited because the first four went into one hole,
the fifth and sixth made that hole wider the 7 & 8 went out to the left!
Then I shot that last target ( bottom left ) and two touched then after that they just started to wander farther & farther away!
I thought to myself that maybe the bore stared to lead up ( but with gas checked bullets?) I got home and pushed a clean dry patch through the bore ..no lead on the patch nor none in the barrel!
So could it be that the more I shot those heavily lubed bullets the more the barrel got slicker?
Besides the fact the the 3rd set of targets (bottom 2) did have a lot of lube on them I shot the right hand one first and started to get excited because the first four went into one hole,
the fifth and sixth made that hole wider the 7 & 8 went out to the left!
Then I shot that last target ( bottom left ) and two touched then after that they just started to wander farther & farther away!
I thought to myself that maybe the bore stared to lead up ( but with gas checked bullets?) I got home and pushed a clean dry patch through the bore ..no lead on the patch nor none in the barrel!
So could it be that the more I shot those heavily lubed bullets the more the barrel got slicker?
fiver
Well-Known Member
heat changes the lubes viscosity.
your groups would/will change when the temperature changes.
a 40-f day and you look like a hero, 85-90 and you are left scratching your head as to what the hell just happened.
the heavily Li & Al stearate treated E-series of grease base low wax lubes left me with groups nice and round only they went from 1/2-3/4" to 1.5-1.7"s when the temps went up past 85.
no lube on the paper, just too much oil in the barrel. [which sucks it was an excellent down to 5-10* lube]
your situation is similar but most [60-65%] of your problem comes after the muzzle.
the 467 is just not gripping the rifling properly and isn't going fast enough to be stabilized.
I know you can run that bullet up into jacketed territory in the 340 rifles [I water drop mine]
what I got from all of that lube testing we done was the CORE condition is really the deal.
how much and how much of what you leave in the barrel really does matter, any more than barely necessary is too much.
ideally I would like a lube that starts out as a complete [malleable] solid but gets 'wetter' the further it goes down the barrel then maintains that flow to the muzzle..
as in the oils rise to the outside of the lube, or the carrier starts to act like a lube itself.
just remember lube isn't the magical elixir that makes problems go away.
but it can point to a symptom and it can contribute to the problem, especially when the issue just pops up as temperatures change.
your groups would/will change when the temperature changes.
a 40-f day and you look like a hero, 85-90 and you are left scratching your head as to what the hell just happened.
the heavily Li & Al stearate treated E-series of grease base low wax lubes left me with groups nice and round only they went from 1/2-3/4" to 1.5-1.7"s when the temps went up past 85.
no lube on the paper, just too much oil in the barrel. [which sucks it was an excellent down to 5-10* lube]
your situation is similar but most [60-65%] of your problem comes after the muzzle.
the 467 is just not gripping the rifling properly and isn't going fast enough to be stabilized.
I know you can run that bullet up into jacketed territory in the 340 rifles [I water drop mine]
what I got from all of that lube testing we done was the CORE condition is really the deal.
how much and how much of what you leave in the barrel really does matter, any more than barely necessary is too much.
ideally I would like a lube that starts out as a complete [malleable] solid but gets 'wetter' the further it goes down the barrel then maintains that flow to the muzzle..
as in the oils rise to the outside of the lube, or the carrier starts to act like a lube itself.
just remember lube isn't the magical elixir that makes problems go away.
but it can point to a symptom and it can contribute to the problem, especially when the issue just pops up as temperatures change.