Reloading for Black Powder Rifles [replicating factory Black Powder with Unique]

[Elric]

Guns Magazine, June 1961, pages 12-13, 46

NOTE: Folks, this comes from a period article from June of 1961. At that time, it was viewed as reasonable. We are now over 60 years later, and this suggested loading data might or might not be published in current reloading manuals. I make no guarantee of the suitability of any of the listed loads. Use at your own risk.

" What powder should be used? Most of today's smokeless rifle powders are not at all compatible in rifles of 1870-1900 vintage. On the other hand, why use black powder? It has no real advantages, but presents problems of fouling, messiness, and laying down a smoke screen, which are not necessary.

The one powder that works well in all of these rifles is Unique. It develops low pressures, is easy to handle, and does not make you unpopular at the range. What is more, it is extremely economical.

Unique came out in 1898. It has been successfully used since then in practically every cartridge and is also good for blasting tree stumps. It is a fast burning powder of the double base type, primarily used in heavy revolver loads and reduced loadings of big bore rifles."

NOTE: I am NOT going to waste my Unique "blasting tree stumps".



"Try to pick a bullet for your rifle which is as near to the original factory bullet as possible. For example, if you own a Winchester M'76 chambered for the .45-60, the correct bullet is Lyman's #457191. This bullet weighs the same, and is roughly the same shape as the original factory bullet."

"Powder charges, according to bore diameter are listed in the table following. All loads are for Unique only! These are all suggested loads which are well below maximum. Loads are for the standard bullet weight in a given caliber. With these loads in mind, the reloader may experiment to find the best load for his particular rifle. Powder charges should never be raised more than 1/2 grain at a time. Keep in mind that most of these rifles were designed to operate at a pressure of 25,000 pounds or less."

"The suggested loads give roughly 11,000 psi. in straight cases 2" in length, with slightly lower pressures in bottleneck or longer cases of the same caliber."

NOTE: I thought a bottleneck case would have HIGHER pressures than a straight wall case.

 

[Axman]

That issue has almost something for everyone.
Thanks

 

[quicksylver]

at one of our annual shoots we had about five guys shooting their Trap Doors, all were using Unique. that was about forty years ago, but, I remember it like it was yesterday, because it sounded like a " spud gun" shoot. BTW. for What it's worth I read an article about '76's NOT handling smokeless powders well.Dan

 

[Elric]

for What it's worth I read an article about '76's NOT handling smokeless powders well.Dan

I've seen a comment like that, but the "highly scientific article" claims the pressures are quite low. Dunno if the limit is peak PSI or the pressure curve for smokeless. Black should spike REAL quick, while smokeless pressure takes longer to top out and that top is relatively later.

If there is an educated individual that can hold forth on this, by all means enlighten us.

 

[462]

Of dubious education, I've yet to read the article, however I do have some experience with Trapdoor levels of Unique. One or two of the ancient Lyman handbooks had Unique data for such, with either their 385-grain or
405-grain bullets, or both (dubious memory, too). Having a goodly supply of Unique and being frugal, I worked up Pedersoli rolling block Trapdoor accuracy loads with Lyman's 405-grain 457193 and 385-grain 457124, and Lee's 340-grainer. Though Pedersoli officially states the rifle is rated to 29,000 PSI, the same as the Winchester 1886, I don't press the issue and stay with Trapdoor data.

Since then, I switched to 2400 and with excellent results, however that supply is dwindling and Unique looms in the future.

Probably not much help, but there it is.

 

[Elric]

One or two of the ancient Lyman handbooks had Unique data for such, with either their 385-grain or 405-grain bullets, or both (dubious memory, too).

One of the first hits I got was "BLACK POWDER PRESSURE CURVES & BULLET OBTURATION" on Texas Macs' site. From a cursory glance, BP peaks about twice as fast, and subsides faster than smokeless. My SWAG is for guns with mechanisms like the 1873, the wider area under the pressure curve of smokeless complicates comparisons. While the action / receiver might handle the peak pressure, the ancillary parts might not do so well if the pressure remains elevated over a longer time.

For me, the Winchester 1885 lacks the fiddly linkages used to hold the bolt in place, and relies on geometry alone to provide the great bulk of strength.

If you read the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, 4th Ed., Unique sorta fades out as the rifle cases get larger, but makes a heckuva showing in the pistol cases, some being the 454 Casull and a .50 something or other.

Note: heavy loads in modern cartridges [say .460 S&W] generate 35-40 k easily. Do not try to extrapolate those loads to much earlier designs and steels. I make no guarantee of the suitability of any of the listed loads -OR- of my wild speculations. Use at your own risk.

 

[oscarflytyer]

Thanx. Right now, although a ton of Unique and 2400, I am shooting expensive high falluttin' loads of 5744 in both my 45-70 Trapdoor and 43 Spanish. I have 2+ lbs, and at 26 grns each, I think I have a ways to go til I run out.

Now, for my other 45-70s, I am looking at 2400 with 300-405 grn bullets.

 

[462]

Twenty-six grains of 5744 is the 45-70 Pedersoli rolling block/RCBS 45-405 accuracy load. Don't know if there's enough powder left to load the remaining 100 bullets (the mold will soon be residing in Texas) but when it's gone it's gone. Can no longer afford nor justify 5744 and Varget prices.

 

[CZ93X62]

I like Ross Seyfried's formula of 'Nominal BP weight X 0.4 = charge weight in IMR 4198'. E.g., in the 45/70 my load is 28.0 grains, in the 38/55 the charge is 22.0 grains. Black powder velocities result. This holds up in 25/20, 32/20, and 44/40 as well.

John Kort came up with 100%-density loads of RL-7 in 44/40 WCF as BP equivalent to support bullet bases against bullet telescoping in Win '73 tube magazines. These work in my carbine, and shoot well at BP velocities. They also do well in 25/20 and 32/20 leverguns at half the charge weight--12.5 grains vs. 25.0 grains.

Semper caveat emptor.

 

[smokeywolf]

at one of our annual shoots we had about five guys shooting their Trap Doors, all were using Unique. that was about forty years ago, but, I remember it like it was yesterday, because it sounded like a " spud gun" shoot. BTW. for What it's worth I read an article about '76's NOT handling smokeless powders well.Dan

Dan, I've had good results with 23-24 grains of IMR 4198 in an original Model '76 chambered for 45-60.

Seems like the best and most widely used smokeless powders used to reproduce black powder cartridges are Unique, IMR 4198 and AA 5744. SR 4759 has also been used with some success in substitute black powder loads.

 

[Ian]

Depending on the granulation of black powder used or the flavor of smokeless, the pressure curves and time/distance to peak can completely overlap each other.

Typical peak pressures in virtually any cartridge with any reasonable powder occur between .100 and .300" of bullet movement, in other words it doesn't make a rat's ass which propellant you use....as long as the peak pressure is within the gun's limits and the barrel is strong enough forward of the chamber for smokeless powders of the flavor that will have a relatively slow pressure decay after peak in the particular chambering and bullet type/weight.

In shotguns, typical BP cartridge loads have been lab tested to have longer pressure curves than equivalent smokeless powder loads and similar pressure peaks. Backwards, you say? Again, we're talking fractions of an inch difference, not several inches. That test threw a monkey wrench in the "why smokeless powder blows up BP Damascus barrels" argument.

The main problem of using smokeless in BP arms is that there are many factors that will cause smokeless powder pressures to spike upward and if you don't know what they are and don't avoid them, you don't really know what's going on inside the chamber. Reference the previous paragraph and we find that abrupt forcing cone angles and short chambers can contribute to excessive pressure and burst tubes when using smokeless cartridge loads in a BP shotgun. That's just an example, I know we're not talking shotguns here but the same concept applies.

Wouldn't it be cool if someone could incorporate a copper or lead crusher mechanism into the back of a bullet and recover it for scrutiny after being fired into a trap?

 

[L Ross]

Depending on the granulation of black powder used or the flavor of smokeless, the pressure curves and time/distance to peak can completely overlap each other.

Typical peak pressures in virtually any cartridge with any reasonable powder occur between .100 and .300" of bullet movement, in other words it doesn't make a rat's ass which propellant you use....as long as the peak pressure is within the gun's limits and the barrel is strong enough forward of the chamber for smokeless powders of the flavor that will have a relatively slow pressure decay after peak in the particular chambering and bullet type/weight.

In shotguns, typical BP cartridge loads have been lab tested to have longer pressure curves than equivalent smokeless powder loads and similar pressure peaks. Backwards, you say? Again, we're talking fractions of an inch difference, not several inches. That test threw a monkey wrench in the "why smokeless powder blows up BP Damascus barrels" argument.

The main problem of using smokeless in BP arms is that there are many factors that will cause smokeless powder pressures to spike upward and if you don't know what they are and don't avoid them, you don't really know what's going on inside the chamber. Reference the previous paragraph and we find that abrupt forcing cone angles and short chambers can contribute to excessive pressure and burst tubes when using smokeless cartridge loads in a BP shotgun. That's just an example, I know we're not talking shotguns here but the same concept applies.

Wouldn't it be cool if someone could incorporate a copper or lead crusher mechanism into the back of a bullet and recover it for scrutiny after being fired into a trap?

Isn't the cast bullet a lead crusher mechanism already? Comparing the foreshortening effect of black powder vs smokeless etc.?

 

[Ian]

Isn't the cast bullet a lead crusher mechanism already? Comparing the foreshortening effect of black powder vs smokeless etc.?

I see your point, but I was thinking of a steel capsule inserted into a hole drilled into the back of the bullet. The capsule would contain a piston exposed to the powder, a crusher pellet, and anvil at the closed front of the capsule. If one could do some math on pellet alloy and crush thickness, lead shotgun pellets could be used.

 

[oscarflytyer]

Twenty-six grains of 5744 is the 45-70 Pedersoli rolling block/RCBS 45-405 accuracy load.

Have to admit... recently saw where Venturino said his now go-to 45-70 Trapdoor smokeless load was 26 gr 5744 and done.

I will never match his experience, and figured - what the Hey. I have the powder, Trapdoor AND 43 RB. And a lot of 43 Spanish data is just extrapolated 45-70ish. So, tried it in both with ~400ish grn bullets. Both were best 25 yd results so far. And NO Load work-up - my FAVORITE! and they are both just FUN guns, and what I love to let others shoot a cpl rnds with for the novelty. All good in my book!

 

[Ian]

Venturino, isn't that the guy who writes how-to books about shooting black powder guns but has to ask his friends what to do when it comes to actually using black powder in them?

 

[oscarflytyer]

Venturino, isn't that the guy who writes how-to books about shooting black powder guns but has to ask his friends what to do when it comes to actually using black powder in them?

...and... I was just WAITING to get my ba!!$ busted for the V ref/req! Thanx Ian for NOT disappointing me!!! LOL!

Having admitted that, is what it is - the 5744 load, so FAR, seems to look ok short range at least. as such, I will eat crow and go...

 

[RicinYakima]

Don’t have a dog in this fight, but a guy that has not experimented in over 30 years, by his own admission, isn’t the guy I want to follow.

 

[462]

Only reason Lyman' Cast Bullet Handbook 4th edition is so full of 5744 load data is due to him stating that he was given a rather large supply of it, not that it is necessarily as useful and/or accurate as the manual shows. Not disparagement, just fact.

 

[Ian]

I was going to mention earlier that Reloder 7 from the past 15 years or so is an improvement over 5744 in every cartridge I ever loaded either into. Accuracy, consistency, heat tolerance, cleanliness, you name it. What the comparison may have been in the 1990s, I have no idea.

 

[oscarflytyer]

hmmm. Also have RL 7!

Now you guys are gonna bully me into more load testing...