S&W Kit Gun.......not what you are thinking

[Pistolero]

I picked up an ex-PD S&W Model 14 (K-38) - the target model in .38 Spl a few years back. I
have tried to find a load that it liked, and had some reasonable successes but nothing like what
I expected. Finally, decided to measure the barrel...... .346 pin gauge drops down the barrel,
and there is a slight 'clink' as it stops at the front of the frame. OK, that would explain the
not-so-great groups.
So, I pulled the barrel, faced off .001 from the shoulder, which let it clock back perfectly with
hand pressure. Cleaned the threads, blue loctite and screw it back in. .346 pin gauge falls
all the way through now.

While it was out, I looked at the forcing cone - all 1/16" of an inch of it at maybe 30-35 degrees or
something. I had purchased Brownell's 18 degree forcing cone reamer, but no bushings, so turned
out a .346 brass guide bushing for the reamer and recut the forcing cone. I don't have a .35 cal
pilot for my crown cutter, so had a friend do that part.

Now, I want to see what the old girl can really do and my eyes struggle a bit these days to shoot 1 inch
groups with a revolver and iron sights, so I got a Weigand Picatinny rail short scope mount. This gun
is old enough not to have the three tapped holes that all newer S&Ws with adjustable sights have
from the factory. A friend put it in his mill [my little one doesn't have a quill :-( and the big one
isn't operational yet] so, drilled in the holes, mounted a Bushnell mini-red dot and sighted it in.

Now the serious ammo testing could start. Some were better than others, but all were better than
before. One of the best was with some "polymer coated" commercial 135 WCs given to me by a
friend, as loaded rounds, to test. These went six in to a bit better than an inch with 3 cases of
one headstamp and three of another! I hope to avoid powder coating.....but, there it is.

I also mixed up a batch of BLL with XLOX and One Step, coated some Lee TL 148 WCs and some
Lyman 358091s, will load them up soon and continue testing.

Pix to follow.

Bill

 

[Ian]

The barrel sprang back? Nice.

 

[Pistolero]

They always spring back. ALWAYS. This is why this is really an easy fix if
you have a lathe.

Here are some pix. One before, pretty typical, two after, better.


before doing anything

After, with red dot.



And the best one so far.



I don't have any WST, either. It will be on my next gunshow shopping list.

The guy that gave me the ammo said it was a 147 gr, but after going to the Bayou
Bullets web site to order 500 for further testing, I found that they are 135 gr.

Bill

 

[Ian]

I never have used WST, but Titegroup is also very good. I'm not sure I'll ever use Bullseye again. Clays never liked any of my .38s, as much as I want it to (have beaucoup Clays and not much use for it), so I must say you've done a fine job getting that project to shoot if it likes Clays that well.

My wife inherited a beautiful little Model 36 made during the one-every-six-minutes production years, it got the sights regulated with a large bench vise and some strategically-placed blocks of wood. The barrel had been torqued so hard that the frame was twisted and bent, pointing the barrel far enough to the right to shoot 9" to the right at 10 yards. The cylinder throats were about .354" and of course it leaded to buggary. After several frame-straightening operations of increasing severity, a thorough reaming and timing check, all is well and the danged thing outshoots most of my other, longer-barreled, better-made revolvers. It also (like most snubbies) patterns rat shot better than the others.

And people gripe about Ruger's "project in a box" revolvers?

 

[Bret4207]

Wow! I guess I've been very lucky with my Smiths. Even the little 38 Bodyguard is a shooter given decent loads. And my actual "Kit Gun" is a wonder with almost any brand of 22LR.

 

[Pistolero]

Ian, yes, Titegroup is on my list of ones to test, have used it a lot, always a couple of 4 lb jugs on hand. But
it showed no special powers prior to bbl rework, will see how it does now. Using Clays mostly because I traded
(really cheap) into an 8 lb jug and need to find SOMETHING to do with it.

Bret, good to hear from you again!

RE: your REAL Kit Gun, my nearest relative to it, an M17, .22 is a picky booger, not too impressive, shooting 2.5" most of
the time with an occasional 1.5" on a blue moon. It is on the list to get checked out for issues.

Bill

 

[S Mac]

Pistolero, if you don't mind, what WST load would you suggest with the H&G #50 and 38 Special brass. I have a lb and haven't seen any data for it.

 

[Pistolero]

I was looking at Hodgdon's site and the data seems a bit odd, at first glance. They are recommending a max of 3.9gr with a
140 gr Hornady "Cowboy load", getting 903 fps at 15,900 psi. They recommend a max of 3.7 gr for 770 fps
with a 158 LSWC, at 15,700 psi. So, you would think that 3.8 or so would be OK as a max for a 148 gr H&G 50......
or at least I would, absent other data.

BUT, we are not "absent other data", they tested an 148gr HBWC. Their data for the 148 HBWC (maybe Rem?)
shows a max of 2.8 gr, getting 735 fps at a pressure of 16,000 psi. That seems very weird to me, it appears that
HBWC produces a lot more pressure than a SWC --- it will have a good bit more length in the case, so the
combustion chamber is smaller, which raises the pressure fairly rapidly. Apparently that is what is going on here.

I would suggest that if you are seating your H&G 50s out of the case and crimping in the std crimp groove, rather than
seated flush, then the 140 gr cowboy might not be too far off. They may have been seating the 148 HBWC flush.
That 0.10" or so that the H&G 50 sticks out should make a large difference in pressure; lower than flush seated.

The sample ammo I got from a friend were 3.9 gr under a 135 solid WC. That would seem to be OK, but perhaps
a bit hot. I would be sure not to flush seat a H&G 50, and start at around 2.5 and work up. A chrono will give you
a good sense of your pressures. If you are hitting 900 fps with a particular load 140-150 gr lead bullet, I would call it quits
there, although they quit at 770 with the 148 HBWC, yet get 903 fps with a 140 gr "Hornady Cowboy" bullet, which I believe
is a swaged lead bullet.

The 3.9 gr 135 WC loads I shot seemed fine in a K-frame, might be +P pressures. I checked and Hodgdon lists no WST loads
in the ".38 Special +P" section.

Bill

 

[Pistolero]

More load testing today.










First - these are not all that I shot, there were 9 loads total, these are the most interesting -
read that as "best groups".

Looks like BLL, which permits no sizing, is doing a good job. The Lee DEWCs were seated sprue end up, I
will try that the other way soon.

Also need to try the RCBS and H&G 50 WCs unsized with BLL at 2.5 Clays. Also, I will run a series of Clays loads
from 1.8 gr to 2.4 gr in 0.1 grain increments with the 358091 unsized with BLL. That BLL, as others have stated
many times, is some pretty impressive stuff. Of course, Red Dot, Bullseye, Titegroup and W231 need their chances,
too. So many possibilities.

Thank you, Ben!

I have the stuff to make Ben's Red..... that final item I need to find is a Round Tuit.

Bill

 

[fiver]

Bill.
that cross linked polymer that Bayou uses is easy enough to apply at home.
you pretty much apply it like powder coating but use 2-3 coats.
you can get the mixed stuff or just the powder from Donnie at bayou.
if you get the powder you just mix it with acetone to make the slurry.

I have always thought it to be a great way to protect bulk home made boolits for long term storage.
since you could coat them and then size/lube them later and not have to worry about them oxidizing.
or just do the multi-coat thing and let them sit until ready for use.

 

[Pistolero]

Fiver - thanks for the info. Pretty ignorant about this PC stuff.

I am hoping that BLL will cover my needs, although I have a couple of Stars which should
work, too. However, I may need to consider "sizing" in the Star to pretty much the as-cast
diameter, really just a lube pass.

It seems like BLL solves this pretty well, assuming they shoot as well as the polymer coated.
So far, I am not seeing it. Hardness may be an issue, too. I am guessing that the Bayou
Bullets will be std rock hard commercial bullet alloy, not something I normally like - but in the
end, Mr. Target is the only arbiter. Right now, Bayou 135 WC polymer coated have one great
group to recommend them. When more arrive, I will see if it was fluke or not. My friend who
gave them to me has literally a house full of PPC trophies to prove that he knows a good bit
about making .38 Spls shoot tiny groups, so I tend to think it is not a fluke.

I had no idea that you mixed the powder with a solvent to spray it, I thought the whole point
of PC (as an industrial process, not what we use it for) was to eliminate VOCs. I thought it was
sprayed somehow as a powder. I guess that requires (or maybe not) a charge on the work piece
and the gun oppositely charged, not sure how folks do it at home, maybe that is why the solvent,
to avoid some different ($$$) gun and charger. The Airsoft pellets tumbling sounds darned
convenient, if it produces good results. Seems like some have had good results with it.

Still hoping to avoid a new process. BLL is so easy that I tend to favor it over PC, but results are what
really count.

So you know exactly what the coating that Bayou uses is? I assume buying it from him will be OK,
but I wonder if I can get the same stuff locally, if I know what to look for.

Bill

 

[Brad]

Bayou used Hi-teak coating. I have some on hand. It is a two part mix that is diluted with acetone. It is a liquid swirled to coat bullets. They are then Dried completely and baked. A second coat is applied, dried, and baked. Done properly the coating will not wipe off with acetone on a patch and a bullet hammered flat will not have the coating flake off.

 

[fiver]

the HI-Tek is from Australia and Bayou is pretty much the distributor in the USA.
it's just easiest to get it from him [sept the shipping]
no spraying involved.
it's just like tumble lubing but then you bake it.

when I said like PC'ing I was referring to the shake and bake method many use to apply the powder coat.
and the cooking method.
the application and stuff is similar but the coatings themselves are different things entirely. [kinda,,, depending on the type of powder you use not to confuse things]

anyway think of the powder coat as an enamel type paint job.
and think of HI-Tek as more of a thin plastic pvc type coating.

 

[Pistolero]

OK so not a powder coating, very interesting. In my tiny test, the bullets were very accurate.
Sounds like seriously tough stuff.

I had 500 shipped to me will test when I get back from Fla. FIL passed away last night, an
old P-51 driver from WW2, 2.5 kills, Air Medal and Bronze Star, at age 96. Going down to
honor him at his funeral. A really good man has left us.

Bill

 

[Brad]

Sorry to hear that Bill. I just spoke to a customer the other day who was a tail gunner in B17s as he put it "a long, long time ago". We are losing some great men.

If you would like I can coat some of your bullets. They need to be lube free but can otherwise be as cast. Sizing after coating works just fine.

 

[Pistolero]

Thanks, Brad, for the condolences and for the coating offer. At this point, I will test some
commercial bullets and get more familiar with the stuff. I might have you coat some of my
castings before I jump in on this new technology. I have just barely started with BLL, so
may have no need for it, if BLL works as well as it seems to in the first few tests.

My FIL was very possibly flying fighter cover for your customer's B-17- as he said, a long, long time ago.

Bill

 

[Cherokee]

Going back to the WST powder comments, I use a lot of WST. In 38 Special, loads range 3.0 to 3.4 depending on the bullet, none of which are wad cutters. For example: 3.1 gr WST under 358477 @ 1.468 OAL yielded 720/765/780 fps from Ruger SA's of 4", 6", 10". WST is more bulky than 231, which I also use a lot of.

 

[KHornet]

More power to those who expand with technology, but being old and set in my ways,
will stick with more conventional ways, and be happy with Ben's Red, BLL, and
Brads Green. I went to the funeral of a 91 year old LTCmdr. last week. Flew twin tail
connies.

Paul

 

[Pistolero]

KHornet,
I lean in your direction on new lube tech. Not looking to change, but might buy
enough of these coated WCs if they prove to be the key to good groups in my K38s.

Sad times. Our WW2 generation is going fast. Buried my FIL last week. P51s out of
England and also flew in Korea, but in liason, not fighters. Got a Bronze Star in Korea,
multiple Air Medals in WW2. He was 96 and could have passed for 76 a year ago.

Thanks for the WST info Cherokee. Not looking for a new powder, but if some comes up
at a bargain price, I may grab a pound to try.

Bill

 

[freebullet]

Have you measured the bayou bullets size against your castings?

When all else fails...I've never met a 38 that didn't like the lee 140swc over just enough hs-6 to burn clean.