Savage 23 D and the one screw action phenomena

[RicinYakima]

For the last five years I've only shot the little Hornet with cast bullets at sage rats and grey diggers at about 50 yards. Looking for another box of cases, I found 30 rounds of jacketed bullets I had loaded maybe ten years ago. I needed to shoot them up before they got moldy and yesterday was the day.

The Savage 23 series of rifles have the action and barrel made from one piece of round stock. The action is held down with one screw just behind the magazine well. The recoil lug is a round piece dovetailed to the bottom of the barrel and sets in a round hole in the forend, and also controls back and forth movement in the stock. This lug is threaded and a screw clamps the forend to the barrel.

I have nine of these little critters (habit forming when you could buy them for $150) in all the calibers from 22 LR to 32/20. The 22 LR and the centerfires with cast bullets going about 1200 f/s are very consistent shooters, for an entire afternoon. However, the Hornets, 25/20's and the 32/20's are only good for about 5 shots until things go wonkie on you. Then you have to let them cool down for a long while, until the barrel isn't even warm to the touch. Walking varminting is OK as I only get one shot every 10 minutes or so where I could hunt.

I've tried every bedding trick I ever heard of but nothing seems to change this with any of the centerfire calibers. So, any thoughts from you folks out there?

 

[Bret4207]

I don't know about the Hornet, but my 32-20 M23 doesn't go wonky at all. I don't remember any issues like that with the M23 25-20 I shot the most either. But it sure sounds like a bedding issue.

 

[RicinYakima]

I don't know about the Hornet, but my 32-20 M23 doesn't go wonky at all. I don't remember any issues like that with the M23 25-20 I shot the most either. But it sure sounds like a bedding issue.

Mine doesn't either with cast bullets. But it does with Remington 100 grain jacketed bullets and A1680 at 1600 f/s. Almost exactly like the Hornet? I don't know the answer, so why I am asking the question.

 

[RicinYakima]

Here are pictures of the 25/20, five shot group and ten shot group. These were shot about 10 years ago, but it isn't better now.

 

[Ole_270]

Around 46 years or so ago a couple old bachelors on a farm across town asked me to reload for their 23D Hornet. Picked up some dies, bullets and powder on their dime, and gave it a try. Problem might of been the scope, an old Weaver 330 that had dust and cobweb like pendants hanging from the crosshairs, but I never did get it shooting to my satisfaction. They seemed happy with it so I loaded up about 100 cases and turned it over to them. Never heard anything more from them about it, they never asked for more loads and I've still got the RCBS dies.

 

[CWLONGSHOT]

I used to shoot mine allot the 32/20 shot cast well but the 25/20 never could. But it was a laser beam with 1680 & 60g jacketed bullets. Its a dandy Fox/Coyote rifle a d mine has taken its share. I pondered a long time before drilling for a base and mounting a 2x7 Leupold. The 32/20 stayed open sites. Never had a Hornet or LR.

I traded for some very nice 25 cal HP bullets but have t loaded or tried them yet. It just shot those 60g Hornadys so flippin well I haven't had the need.
The 32/20 is better shape and deep in the back of a safe. The Marlin 1894 CL and custom H&R 32/20 Bbl gets use when I want to shoot the 32/20. That handi shoots a 140g MP HP bullet touching when launched from stuff load of 4227. The barrel is a SMLE take off.

CW

 

[Ian]

Ric, buy a Chinese dial indicator and base set if you don't already have one (Clockwise Tools makes a good cheap one, get it from Jeff's Dollarama). Mount the magnetic base to the underside of the barrel in front of the forearm and position the tip of the indicator on the underside of the forearm. Clamp the buttstock in a vise with the rifle in the shooting orientation and loosen the action screw slightly while observing the indicator needle. If you get any movement in the first quarter to half turn of the screw, the action/barrel is stressed by the bedding and can shift POI as barrel and action temperature changes.

 

[CZ93X62]

No experience with the Savage 23-series rifles here. For 90% of my varminting, that bullet-walking trait as the barrel warms would cause me no grief. But I KNOW, it just isn't "right". I have a pre-Model 27 x 6.5" with .011" cylinder gap, and gunsmiths say "Leave it alone and enjoy it." It preys on my mind, though--it isn't "right". That the revolver is accurate and doesn't spit lead seems to be the sticking point. So, YEAH--I hear ya.

 

[RBHarter]

I had a 110 LH that acted like that , it was intensely case volume sensitive .
The 06' Is cavernous compared the others in question but a volume change the same as a piece of #6 shot was the difference between 5 touching and 4" groups . Just a thought to think when logical answers run out .

 

[RicinYakima]

Ian, here is the setup I used. Working the main screw did nothing, but loosening the recoil lug screw made about a .001" difference.

 

[RicinYakima]

The issue is trying to find some place flat and square to bed on. Recoil lug and all the parts on the bottom screw onto the round barrel/action.

 

[RicinYakima]

Hope you can see that the stock shows pressure on the two flat places I can find. My other thought is to simply glass bed the round recoil lug fully into the stock.

 

[Bret4207]

I think you hit the answer in your last post. Glass the lug and check for barrel clearance. IIRC back near the trigger the action bears on the stock. You could try shimming in that area to see if the issue might be lateral movement too.

 

[Kevin Stenberg]

I was ignorant of what the gun you are talking about looked like so i went to GB. Now i know what they look like. I also know the asking price is into the 4 figures. That is out of my price range.

 

[Ian]

That's a tough one. Remember I'm not a gunsmith and have no experience with these rifles, but I've been known to infest Holiday Inns on occasion. The rifle basically has two pillars already, but the screw tension is transferred to the wood in the wrong place at the front which can stress the action. What I would try to do is make an aluminum socket for the rear pillar and bed that into the stock so the bottom of the pillar bottoms on the bottom of the hole in the socket as the screw is tightened. Then shave off a little wood and bed the flat part where the magazine tab sits on the stock now, thus supporting the rear pillar at the top and bottom. Let a little epoxy flow up the sides of the magazine tab for lateral action support. Use modeling clay to ensure the epoxy doesn't flow around the tab and lock the action in the stock.

For the recoil lug, I'd put clay on the front half and bed just the cone on the bottom and the rear of the lug itself to the stock so the action will still come out of the stock but the lug will be fully supported under recoil. I would make sure that no wood or epoxy touches the bottom of the barrel around the recoil lug, just let the cone at the bottom be the support for screw tension, trim epoxy overflow and shave wood as necessary. Basically the rear pillar will support the action vertically and laterally in the stock while the recoil lug only supports vertically and aft. I wouldn't skim bed any of the action or barrel.

 

[RicinYakima]

Ian, I like your thoughts. The rear pillar is not going to be very tall, but I will have to measure for that. And will have to look at the recoil lug recess to see what is on the bottom. Will keep everyone informed.

 

[RicinYakima]

Update. Well, the rifle is apart and upon close examination, it appears that part of the problem is the wood under the action is oil soaked. Since the best I can tell from the serial number, it was made in 1931/1932, most likely from the walnut cutting frenzy of 1917/18.

Ian, there is no side to side stability except for the round recoil tube under the barrel area. So I believe I will turn an pillar for the main screw, with some side to side support and shoot it like that and see if it makes a difference.

 

[Ian]

Making a socket for the rear pillar will be a challenge. I don't think it can be made tightly enough to control side to side movement and still be able to get the action in and out of the stock. What I was thinking is make the socket so it mainly clamps down against the bottom of the rear stud when the screw is tightened, but almost touches or does touch the flat strip of metal that the rear stud pins against the receiver (rear magazine guide?). Affix the socket you make to the action with a dummy screw or stud and nut and glass bed the socket into the stock using surgical tubing. Build up a ring of tape on the barrel in front of the chamber so as to center the action in the stock.

Once the socket is bedded, remove the action and cut down the wood and excess bedding compound around the rear socket and prepare everything to bed around the top of the socket. The idea is to nest the action atop the socket in a small blob of bedding compound which will replace the compromised wood in that area and flow slightly up the sides of the rear magazine strip. This will make a firm support for the rear of the action and will be a sort of channel which locks the action in vertically and laterally. Give me a minute and I'll draw a picture of what I'm imagining.

At the same time you bed the top of the socket, bed just the cone at the bottom of the recoil lug and the back of the lug, or maybe do just the bottom of the recoil lug when bedding the rear socket and bed the back side and action behind the lug afterwards, at the same time you skim-bed around the rear stud/socket.

 

[SWISS SHOOTER]

Once upon a time I probably had the largest collection of 1919, 1921, M23 and M19s. Ever seen a 44-40 ?
The 23D was always the toughest to get to shoot well. Finally I found that the 40 gr Hornady V-MAX over a 80-90% of max of Lil Gun worked well.

Prize wining exhibit Rochester NY circa 70s.

 

[RicinYakima]

What I was thinking is make the socket so it mainly clamps down against the bottom of the rear stud when the screw is tightened, but almost touches or does touch the flat strip of metal that the rear stud pins against the receiver (rear magazine guide?).

Yep, that is what is happening now. I have to socket (steel JB Weld) hardening. Rear lever is the spring loaded magazine lip and the front is the magazine guide.