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freebullet
Guest
Ever needed one?
Ian
Notorious member
The only time I ever use one is to restore 1F military machine gun brass to where it will actually fit commercial chambers. After the initial resize, standard dies are MORE than enough and still usually a little too tight. The M1A requires a case body resizing after every firing, but not necessarily a full-on, cram it to the shellholder fit. Here is an in-depth explanation of what the M1A requires, and I've found it applies exactly to cast bullet loads too.
For the most part, small base dies are the opposite of what is needed for cast bullet loads.
For the most part, small base dies are the opposite of what is needed for cast bullet loads.
L1A1Rocker
Active Member
Like others here, only when needed. I use one on my mil surplus 7.62 brass, and on 556 brass. After I know they are correct, I use traditional sizing dies.
RBHarter
West Central AR
I had an 06' I was sure I was going to need an SB . I acquired a second sizer and after a little fussing I decided that if I polished either a minor flat on the die breach or the tool marks off the top of the shell holder . Turns out that the "new" die was on the short side of the manufacturer tolerance and a very tight cam over setup on the empty holder and a brief hold resolved the need .
As mentioned in another thread I've had to double fire form the brass to get it back to fit every time .
It's a 760 with a near match tight chamber .
As mentioned in another thread I've had to double fire form the brass to get it back to fit every time .
It's a 760 with a near match tight chamber .
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freebullet
Guest
Thanks guys.
My experience had been similar. Never needed one. The other night I was helping a newbie make some jax loads for a new 783 in 308. So I scrounge around & found some 1xf mil 7.62 brass to get him started and low and behold my full length die wouldn't size them down far enough for the bolt to close.
A bit of sharpie showed the shoulder was the hold up. I was able to find an rcbs small base die local and that just did it.
Seems like I may need to remove a hair at the die entrance or off the top of the shell holder for this batch of brass. Must have been fired in an extra generous machine gun chamber.
My experience had been similar. Never needed one. The other night I was helping a newbie make some jax loads for a new 783 in 308. So I scrounge around & found some 1xf mil 7.62 brass to get him started and low and behold my full length die wouldn't size them down far enough for the bolt to close.
A bit of sharpie showed the shoulder was the hold up. I was able to find an rcbs small base die local and that just did it.
Seems like I may need to remove a hair at the die entrance or off the top of the shell holder for this batch of brass. Must have been fired in an extra generous machine gun chamber.
358156 hp
At large, whereabouts unknown.
As an aside, I bought an RCBS SB 223 die set to get ahead of all the surplus military brass I was fooling with. I didn't really like the results, so I returned it for a std Hornady .223 die set. When I received the Hornady set my concerns about the sizing of the neck area was fixed, so I pulled out the hundred or so cases I had sized with the RCBS set. And of course the Hornady set straightened all them out as well, and actually sized the case bases down a bit further. The std Hornady die was actually sizing smaller than the RCBS small base sizer. Who'd of ever thunk it? Anyway, I'm happy.
Short story,last set of "used" dies here were old but hardly used.After a little head scratching....best I could determine,the FL die was on the long end of specs.No amt of camming over was going to get this die to touch the shoulder of cases with 2 or 3 firings in this bolt action.Trim length fine.And not annealed,yet....just needing a thous. or two bump.
Further,the base of case wasn't getting sized enough.Not disparaging,but I think the seller was passing on this die set?
Chucked shell holder up in lathe and peeled off steel..try it....peel some more.Fixed.
Never had that happen before outta a dz die sets for bolt guns.
Further,the base of case wasn't getting sized enough.Not disparaging,but I think the seller was passing on this die set?
Chucked shell holder up in lathe and peeled off steel..try it....peel some more.Fixed.
Never had that happen before outta a dz die sets for bolt guns.
Ian
Notorious member
My RCBS .35 Remington FL die wouldn't touch the shoulder of brass fired in a loose gun, either. Not having a lathe, I've gotten pretty good at using a cordless drill and bench grinder to "peel off" metal. Had to do this with wildcats and with crimp dies that are too long also. Check for square off the top shoulder of the die with a big c-clamp mic and true if required with a belt sander.
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freebullet
Guest
I had it screwed down making firm contact originally. That was my trusty Hornady 308 die.
The rcbs sb screwed down making firm contact did work, although they were still a bit long(firm but not ridiculous bolt closure). I think I'll thin a shell holder to keep with the rcbs set. Funny how the exact opposite happens with manufacturer quirks for some of us. I had successfully refurbed other 7.62 batches with the same Hornady set that wouldn't do this batch.
They needed a good trim afterward.
We did get 100 loaded for his rifle but, the remainder of that batch is over 1500 pcs. so I've got my work cut out for myself refurbishing those.
The rcbs sb screwed down making firm contact did work, although they were still a bit long(firm but not ridiculous bolt closure). I think I'll thin a shell holder to keep with the rcbs set. Funny how the exact opposite happens with manufacturer quirks for some of us. I had successfully refurbed other 7.62 batches with the same Hornady set that wouldn't do this batch.
They needed a good trim afterward.
We did get 100 loaded for his rifle but, the remainder of that batch is over 1500 pcs. so I've got my work cut out for myself refurbishing those.
I had to but a Lee 30-30 sizer because my RCBS didn't size the case enough to let them chamber.
Interesting how a small change in a dimension makes a big difference is usefulness. The lack of cramming in a lever action sure makes it hard to chamber a round with a slightly oversized case.
Interesting how a small change in a dimension makes a big difference is usefulness. The lack of cramming in a lever action sure makes it hard to chamber a round with a slightly oversized case.
358156 hp
At large, whereabouts unknown.
My SB 223 die left about 3/16 of the neck unsized before the shell holder bottomed out on the die. 3/16 is important in a 223 and I couldn't simply shake that much off. It almost appeared that the final radius from the shoulder to the neck was heavily undercut. I like Hornadys eliptical expander better anyway.
RBHarter
West Central AR
I suppose if it gives you to much trouble you could back a 222 die way off to get the neck and shoulder reset . But that is a worst case desperation suggestion. It would most definitely allow you to reduce the shoulder diameter and the length from the head to shoulder .
There is mention several times about the shoulder and neck being suspect . I don't know the particulars about the 223 Wylde chamber but if memory serves me the shoulder was a pressure reducing feature of that adjustment to the 556/223 chamber in an effort to keep the base and neck centered . As I understood it , minimalist skiming , they kept a minimum 556 neck and 223 base while allowing a maximum diameter shoulder and allowing that shoulder/body junction to move forward. It also has a long leade/throat . That may be the source of part of the brass if it is pick up vs salvage buys .
There is mention several times about the shoulder and neck being suspect . I don't know the particulars about the 223 Wylde chamber but if memory serves me the shoulder was a pressure reducing feature of that adjustment to the 556/223 chamber in an effort to keep the base and neck centered . As I understood it , minimalist skiming , they kept a minimum 556 neck and 223 base while allowing a maximum diameter shoulder and allowing that shoulder/body junction to move forward. It also has a long leade/throat . That may be the source of part of the brass if it is pick up vs salvage buys .
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freebullet
Guest
I've been lucky with 223/556 brass, my standard Hornady f/l die has done everything we pick up & refurbish without issue.
I dislike the necessary evil that is rifle brass prep.
I dislike the necessary evil that is rifle brass prep.
oscarflytyer
Well-Known Member
Only for one specific rifle in over 30 yrs of reloading. And wasn't even aware of what a SB die really was until this one. Got it with the SB die included with the std FL set. FL = NoGo. This one flat requires a SB AND I cycle every round to make sure! This one is a Savage 99 in 284 Winchester.