Some like it HOT (adventures with 750 degrees)

Elric

Well-Known Member
Well, I fired up some pot yesterday. 375248 were casting nicely. Good fill, no wrinkles. RCBS 45-300-FN were responding well, a little whisker action, but still good.

Finished up a pile, then I got into a housecleaning mode, melted down a bunch of bullets for either calibers or cartridges that I do not load for, and turned them into the proper shape of ingot. A bit odd, there was two coffee cans with lead bullets, the first I has tipped over onto some plywood earlier to drain and dry, the other had some water and rust in the last inch at the bottom. Sort of a red-orange gritty slurry.

The drained ones were dumped in batches. The ones from the second can were hand-wiped and added one by one. A little bubbling with a few.

Added a few muffins of WW. Put a 410610 and a 280468(s) on top to heat up. A little flux action. Cleansing.

The 280468s pills were beautiful. Small single cavity mould. The 410610 had very crisp fill, but were showing one of the following: good base, high sprue cutoff, torn centers.

After a decent night's sleep (and coffee, don't forget the coffee...) I remembered the pretty much complete absence of a sprue puddle on any cast. The sprue mostly ran off, even though I deliberately tried to form a puddle. Melt was probably aroung 750. Further caffiene aided thought included the whiskers on some of the bullets.

Prime projection: Melt too hot, perhaps 725 or so for puddle formation. The torn sprue? Hmm... I cast with two moulds for cadence. Perhaps the absence of a sprue puddle is the culprit. The sprue plate should have enough sprue above it in order to have resistance to the sprue cut-off sufficient enough for a good shearing action. The sprues on quite a few bullets was confined to the conical depression in the sprue plate.

Direct pour was doing a good job of fill, but lack of a good puddle seems to be the issue.

The high sprues should be cured with careful tightening of the sprue plate. Direct pour takes care of a bit of the sprue plate venting issue.

Almost forgot - there has been an issue with the minimal sprue remaining in the sprue holes after I drop the bullets. Annoying, I have to turn the mold upside-down and pop the cut off sprue from the hole. It is probably linked to the near complete lack of a sprue puddle, where the sprue plate cools. Sorta confusing, but the laws of thermodynamics be a harsh mistress.... YMMV.
 
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Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
Lack of a sprue puddle forming is a matter of mould heat, not melt heat. Sip a corner of a cold mould in the melt and lead hardens on it and sticks. Try that with a hot mould and the lead doesn't stick near as much.

750° is pretty hot to me. The hotter melt means more heat is transferred to the mould with each pour. This leads to a hotter mould. The 410610 holds more lead so it heats faster.

I use a lower melt temp and a small fan to help maintain mould temp where I want it. I don't look for a large sprue puddle as I use a Rowell #2 ladle that holds over a pound of lead. I pour lead into the cavity and keep pouring for a two count in each cavity. That lets the nose begin to harden while the base is stil liquid. I don't count on a sprue puddle much, most of the excess lead drains off the mould and back into the pot.

Always think of casting as pouring heat into a mould, not lead. More heat is held by larger cavities. Hotter melt means more heat for the same volume.

Learn to control the heat of the mould and all is good. Melt temp, rhythm, and calling time for the empty mould all play together to get a consistent mould temp.

Rick can explain this better, I am simply telling what I learned from him. Since he convinced me to get this ladle I get far better bullets than I did from bottom pour.
 
Annoying, I have to turn the mold upside-down and pop the cut off sprue from the hole. I
I know that one, but not the answer. I have seen it with my bottom pour but not ladle pouring, adjusting the flow rate on the bottom pour and length of drop seems to help.

It's a mystery.....
 

Cherokee

Medina, Ohio
My RCBS pot is usually set at 800 where I do the majority of my casting. Molds are preheated on hot plate. I don't have any problems quickly getting and continuing to get good bullets (one mold was an exception) but I do slow down as the mold gets hotter. YMMV...
 

Ian

Notorious member
If you have sprue bumps your mould is too cold. Has NOTHING to do with pot temp. Cast faster, mound a big puddle of lead on top of the sprue plate. Four pours a minute is fast. TIME IT.
 

Rick

Moderator
Staff member
Elric, I'm sure your aware that you can't get good bullets with a mold that is too cool. The same is true of bullet bases with a sprue plate that is too cool. The sprue plate doesn't have the mass the blocks do so it cools quicker. Plus it spends time sticking out in the air cooling it even faster. Look at pouring a generous sprue puddle while bottom pouring as pouring heat and keeping the plate at a good operating temp. The sprue puddle will give the bullet base metal to draw from as it cools in addition to keeping the plate up to temp.

Pot temp doesn't need to be high, if you cast with a pot temp of 700 degrees your alloy is at least 300 degrees hotter than your mold needs to be. With a good casting cadence and keeping the blocks closed and full as much as possible that 300 degrees is more than enough to keep the blocks and plate at a good casting temp.

.
 

KHornet

Well-Known Member
Good words of wisdom here! That said, I cast with an RCBS Bottom pour for the majority of my bullets. I cast at max temp on the pot, whatever that is. Have never used a thermometer. I also like a bit of frosting. I believe in what Brad says regarding dipping the corner of alum molds in the melt. If the melt is hot enough to not have lead on the mold that is the temp I feel is adequate for most of my casting.
I find this to work for me with bullets from 224's, on up to 6.5's. I cast fairly fast, and try to establish a rhythm particularly for small bullets (regardless of the no of cavs in the Mold). Have grown very fond of NOE molds, and 6 cav lees. This is what works for me, not necessarily advice for others.
 

Elric

Well-Known Member
Time for more coffee. To the comments concerning bottom pour, thanks, but don't put any more effort into it. I don't bottom pour.

The minimal sprue situation has only happened in the last two sessions where I tried the direct connect / tilting method.

Most of my ladle pouring in the past was with the mould vertical and the ladle being rotated. Usually gives me about a nickle sized puddle about 1/8th inch thick (casting a double cavity). Some moulds are persnickety about the sprue plate tightness, some want it fairly loose, some snug. The last session, I was trying to adjust the 410610 sprue plate and/or pop out the sprue. I dislike allen screws for sprue screw locks because you have to stick the wrench in a small hole and be close to the 60 degree throw to get the wrench to seat in the hole. Not good for cadence.

As noted, drop the melt temp down. Set the sprue plate firm but not tight.

The ideal of grooving the bottom of the sprue plate comes to mind. It is like breaking the upper, inner edges of the mould. But on a different plane. I have a 90 degree spotting drill that should do.

PS. you can run your melt too hot... tends to oxidize the tin, IIRC. Reminds me of missing the HP pin in a 457122 at 800+ temp, lead flows out the bottom like water... Oops...

And to finish up with a word on safety... My casting outfit has been likened to hazmat. Not afraid of the fumes, but of splatter.

Hat
Flip up face visor over hat
Safety glasses
Long sleeve jacket with fu-manchu stand up collar
Nomex flyer's gloves (not for handling molten liquid, but splatters)
Long pants -OR- a long apron over shorts
Boots. Never shoes or sandals

I don't play odds with flying lead, hot or cold.
 

quicksylver

Well-Known Member
Am I understanding that you don't have a sprue puddle?

If so a long 30 cal or equ. bullet or a large 45 cal handgun bullet won't have any alloy to pull from when cooling.
To me it says your alloy is too hot and mold too cool..

Tearing of the srue is an indication of 1. too hot alloy or 2. insufficient wait time for sprue to cool.

My alloy is about 92/4/4 ..my pot is set on 680 and the Al. 30 cal molds run between 350- 370deg. ( depends on mold)
I have a pot and mold thermometer....and regulate my casting to maintain the best mold temp for that particular mold...

I have noticed a cratering of bases on larger diam. bullets..the outside edges are flat then cratered towards the center..it makes the srue cut look like its raised..
the cratering is very minor and usually only shows up because that portion of the alloy has a different finish...
 

Creeker

Well-Known Member
Mine will go much higher but doesn't. I could run a bit cooler but my tin starved alloy likes a little more heat.
 

quicksylver

Well-Known Member
I was going to ask if you used straight lead...:)

No matter what the temp..if it works for you...GREAT !!!
 

Creeker

Well-Known Member
I was going to ask if you used straight lead...:)

No matter what the temp..if it works for you...GREAT !!!

I really should break over & use some tin. I have 1000 pounds of 92-6-2 left over from Dry Creek inventory & brought some to the house Friday to mix 50/50 with pure lead. We'll see how that works. Perhaps I can cool down after all summer is here. ;)
 

quicksylver

Well-Known Member
I really should break over & use some tin. I have 1000 pounds of 92-6-2 left over from Dry Creek inventory & brought some to the house Friday to mix 50/50 with pure lead. We'll see how that works. Perhaps I can cool down after all summer is here. ;)

Do you use the alloy calculator..?

If not check it out on line..
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
that 1/3 mix [that the 2/6 and pure mixed will come out to be is super close to what I run. [what I shoot for anyway]
I generally have my pot in the 715 or so area.
I have 3 paint pen slash marks on the side of the magma pot.
one for big, one for medium, and one for small boolits.
it's easier to change the heat level than my speed.
 

williamwaco

Active Member
"The sprue mostly ran off, even though I deliberately tried to form a puddle."


This is my PRIMARY indicator and it tells you how hot the mold is. It can happen at any pot temperature from 550 up to 1000.

When the sprue will form a puddle but pour off like water if you tilt the mold after two seconds and solidifies after three seconds you will get perfect bullets.

If the sprue will not form a puddle, your mold is way too hot.

Use cadence or a small fan to keep your mold at this temperature. ( liquid at two seconds solidifying at three seconds.