Sorry, but I ain't buying it.

[USSR]

From: www.dph.illinois.gov/sites/default/files/.../lead-safety-firing-ranges-041516.pdf
"When a gun is fired, lead from the unjacketed bullet shooting down the barrel, lead vaporized from the base of the bullet and lead from the burned primer sprays out in a cloud when the bullet is fired."

Lead styphnate from the primer, sure. But the fraction of a second during which the powder is burning behind the lead bullet causing the lead at the base of the bullet to vaporize? Nah! Coming from Illinois, I bet Chicago is behind this.

Don

 

[RicinYakima]

While l was employed by the Washington State Department of Ecology I was also the President of the local Rifle and Pistol Club. I was working as an environment chemist. WA adapted, word for word, the Wikipedia research of California in adopting a "lead chemical action plan". It did not matter that there was no science; it did not matter that there was no evidence that lead from bullets was a prime component of lead pollution, nor that WA has not had a confirmed sighting of a condor since 1834. Lead does not vaporize from base of a bullet.

 

[Chris]

Who is behind this turning of lead into a dangerous toxin akin to cyanide and radioactive iodine? What is the motive? I suspect lawyers and governments who can now expand their budgets, manpower, and control over populations.

 

[Ian]

Lead does not vaporize from the flames on the base of the bullet.

HOWEVER......................

A very significant amount of lead is atomized due to gas cutting, abrasion, etc. in the instance of even the best-fitting bullet.

How do I know this?

From shooting plain, lubricated bullets through suppressors. How significant is the quantity of lead dispersed into the air? Well, in fewer than 500 rounds of .45 ACP, in a carbine, the suppressor gained two ounces. In fewer than 800 rounds of .300 AAC Blackout, the suppressor gained 1.5 ounces. The lead alloy was deposited on the baffles and removed by scraping and chipping.

So I began powder-coating my bullets and many thousands of rounds later, have yet to gain any measurable amount of fouling in either suppressor.

 

[oscarflytyer]

We as shooters, and especially casters and cast bullet shooters, get subjected to more lead than most any other hobby group. Maybe stained glass hobbyists, I don't know what else. If you want to know what YOUR exposure to lead is, get your blood tested. Normal range is 0-9. My last reading was 6. And I was handling it a lot and casting and shooting and smelting. Have prob 1000+ lbs around (and I know a lot of you have MUCH more...).

Some of the local guys were above normal. They think it was due to tumbling brass in a closed room. I do all mine outside. I am getting ready to crank it back up (after some damned inconvenient hernia surgery in the morning - lead can be WAY heavier than you think...) and am going to have my lead level tested at my next physical. I expect it to be low, and as such can use the level as a baseline. I am really not worried about it. And fwiw, I think all the dead birds from eating lead is hokey BS, but who knows.

 

[RicinYakima]

You got it Ian! Small particles of lead abraded from the bullet, gas cut from the bullet (especially from the ports of a flash or sound suppressor) will compact under the high gas pressures. And carbon based lubes at high temperatures just bake it on. If ever there is a place for PC bullets, suppressed firearms is it.

oscarflytyer, "And fwiw, I think all the dead birds from eating lead is hokey BS, but who knows." I know exactly and precisely. Bottom feeding water birds than ingest oxidized lead shot into their craw will get lead oxide poisoning. Scavengers that ingest lead bullets will pass the lead with their stool, unless your bullets had white lead oxide on them. The science has been there for 40 years.

 

[RicinYakima]

Wasn't it the Wisconsin Department of Wildlife that had to retract their PubEd piece about "never eat game kill by a bullet or you will die of lead poisoning!". That piece ran about 10 years ago.

 

[freebullet]

The Nebraska lead pamphlet earned them some flack.

Its pure politics.

Dont think the green copper oxides harmful? Most metal oxides are, nobody is eating rust for dinner, we don't outlaw steel, rubber, gas, winter, & stupid.

I'ma guna pass. ...

 

[USSR]

Perhaps I should clarify the reason for this thread. On another forum, there was talk about an indoor range banning lead bullets for health reasons. So, I commented that it was merely a feel-good policy, since the source of lead related health problems regarding indoor ranges comes from the lead styphnate in primers, and the lead free policy would not achieve it's health related goals. Then there were comments saying that the airborne lead could also be coming from the vaporization of the lead from the bullet base. Now, on to Ian's point about the accumulation of lead in a suppressor. It seems to me that this lead is a different situation in that they are much larger particles and would, sans suppressor, simply fall to the floor and not be airborne particles that can be inhaled? Yes?

Don

 

[Eutectic]

Now, on to Ian's point about the accumulation of lead in a suppressor. It seems to me that this lead is a different situation in that they are much larger particles and would, sans suppressor, simply fall to the floor and not be airborne particles that can be inhaled? Yes?

I think one should separate metallic lead from lead compounds in any discussion. One should know lies and deceit are fair game these days to reach one's agenda. Ban lead is a step to ban guns in their pea brains!
Having a blood test is good! My last one was barely on the scale! (bottom of course!)

What about those that have a bullet lodged in an inoperable spot? Some live decades this way without problems.....

We worked with litharge many years ago (almost 55) I can remember other apprentices getting the heavy sick yellow looking powder airborne as they mixed the concoction! The yellow dust dropped fast but may be close to you if thrown! Yes I've seen that too! What is litharge? It's lead monoxide! A compound by the way..... We mixed a 'mud' up with it and glycerin. What for? Pressing new liners into steam piston pumps. Good stuff!! We would have to machine the old liners out with the horizontal mill to reline! None of us knew any better back them that it was bad stuff to breathe or get in your mouth!

But the worst lead compound I know of and worked with too is tetraethyllead...... Yeah... the stuff put into gasoline in the old days to raise octane rating. Very little is used...... But Standard Oil (pre-Chevron) bought it by the tank car from the Ethyl Corporation. This stuff was bad! It was the only time I've seen or was aware of actual lead poisoning instead of talk. To hook up tank cars or worse, work on piping or pumps....... We wore what we called "ZUKE SUITS" Fully encapsulated with breathing air pumped in. LEAD COMPOUNDS!!! The worst I knew of.

Metallic lead??? Just be careful. This whole group proves it can't be to bad..... We're still kickin'!

 

[USSR]

If you want to know what YOUR exposure to lead is, get your blood tested. Normal range is 0-9. My last reading was 6. And I was handling it a lot and casting and shooting and smelting.

I was tested last year, I was at 8. Thanks for the normal range info, as I had not seen that before.

Don

 

[Ian]

I agree that primers is still the main source, but if you can smell gunsmoke there's likely atomized bullet metal in it, and you ought not be breathing it. The flue above my casting pot tests very hot for lead oxide when using a lead-detecting wipe. How does lead get up there? It doesn't vaporize at casting temperatures, so it must travel with the smoke.

If an indoor range can't keep shooters safe from residues of standard priming compound and swagged or cast bullets, their ventilation system isn't up to par....or.....they know how danged expensive replacing and disposing ventilation filters is, and want to minimize their cost, which really you can't blame them for. It's convenient to propagate the technical myth about bullet bases melting, but at the end of the day what comes out the muzzle has the same effect as if it did.

 

[USSR]

The flue above my casting pot tests very hot for lead oxide when using a lead-detecting wipe.

Ian,

Are the above wipes you refer to cheap and disposable?

Don

 

[KeithB]

It's convenient to propagate the technical myth about bullet bases melting, but at the end of the day what comes out the muzzle has the same effect as if it did.

I think Ian has pointed out some of the miscommunication about this subject. Does lead vaporize (turn gaseous) from the heat of combustion of a normal powder charge? No expert here but not very likely. Do lead particles come from the base of the bullet due to gas particle impingement? Probably, since particles eroding from the surface of much harder metals is a known phenomenon. Add gas cutting (which WILL melt bullet alloy) and lead from shaved bases, etc. and you have non gaseous airborne lead compounds floating around.

The vapor vs particle thing is why you can cast bullets and with a few basic safety precautions keep your lead levels low.

It would be interesting to see if shooting PCed bullets cuts the airborne lead output as Ian's suppressor observations seem to indicate.

 

[Ian]

I got a lead test kit years ago, it was something like $35-40 from the local hardware store, comes with solution and some little wipes. It came in real handy when putting some very old, painted furniture in the nursery.

 

[Ian]

The vapor vs particle thing is why you can cast bullets and with a few basic safety precautions keep your lead levels low.

It would be interesting to see if shooting PCed bullets cuts the airborne lead output as Ian's suppressor observations seem to indicate.

I still think the primer is the most dangerous part. I haven't ever had my blood lead levels checked, but about 15 years ago had a hair sample tested for heavy metals as part of some diagnostics, and I was very high in antimony and arsenic! Lead was only slightly elevated from the "normal". We figured out it was from handling tire weights (old and fresh) very frequently as part of my job, not wearing gloves, and being a smoker. I'm not a slob, but we all touch our faces a lot more than we think, and as a mechanic I don't wash my hands every five minutes. After two or three years of wearing nitrile gloves and a good particle mask when handling tire weights, and being fastidious about handwashing before a smoke, I had the test re-done and levels had dropped.

Now that I've quit smoking and only deal with lead when "smelting" or casting bullets, I should get my levels checked again to see how I'm doing.

Regarding a PC or other coating resulting in a drastic reduction of atomized bullet lead, I'd say it was at least a 95% improvement, probably a bit more. My subsonic loads don't even cut through the paint of my recovered bullets in most instances.

What really bothers me, though, is shooting a suppressed AR-15 left-handed. The ejection port is just about six inches from my nose, and I get a good, peppery whiff of barrel gas from every shot. It's even worse when shooting slow-fire from the bench, as the breathing routine always leaves me taking a deep breath right after the shot, in perfect time to a thick curl of smoke wafting back under my nose.

 

[Eutectic]

What really bothers me, though, is shooting a suppressed AR-15 left-handed. The ejection port is just about six inches from my nose, and I get a good, peppery whiff of barrel gas from every shot. It's even worse when shooting slow-fire from the bench, as the breathing routine always leaves me taking a deep breath right after the shot, in perfect time to a thick curl of smoke wafting back under my nose.

Sounds like it's talking to you Ian...... A quiet little voice..... Can't you hear it? "sealed breech..... sealed breech..... sealed breech....."
Not to worry.... Soon AR-15's will go down the trail of the Thompson Machine Gun!

Us lefties do have it worse even a split primer cup will spit gas at you where righties may not feel it!

Pete

 

[popper]

I think all the dead birds from eating lead is hokey BS Actually Condors young die from choking on th junk the parent feed it, not lead. Data from those guys with degrees in bird studies. Had to drive throughan accident scene last nite, cops put out about a 100 flares. We about choked in 100 ft of driving - windows closed.

 

[USSR]

I got a lead test kit years ago, it was something like $35-40 from the local hardware store, comes with solution and some little wipes. It came in real handy when putting some very old, painted furniture in the nursery.

The reason I asked is, I was wondering if one of the wipes could be placed about a foot from the muzzle and a lead bullet fired thru that wipe, followed by a jacketed bullet fired thru a second wipe? Would be interesting to see if there was any marked difference between what the wipes say.

Don

 

[Ian]

A quiet little voice..... Can't you hear it? "sealed breech..... sealed breech..... sealed breech....."

Hence me threading several of my levergun muzzles.