Stimulus Rifle

[CZ93X62]

Congrats on the FINE Win 1892 and that wonderful Lyman rear sight.

So far, I have not acquired a 38/40 WCF firearm......but not for lack of trying. With restoration of my health now well under way, I might take that hunt back up.

One caution about the Lyman #401043 bullet......it has the same absence of a crimping groove that besets the #311008 for 32/20 WCF applications and the #427098 for the 44/40. You can "wrap" a roll crimp around the bullet ogive easily enough, but the bullet base was meant to be supported by a column of compressed black powder in the cartridge's OEM form. Under the shunting passage of a cartridge down a tubular magazine, most smokeless powder charges lack the bulk to form this required support column. If you want to use smokeless powders, I have resorted to two methods--and NOT to the Lee Factory Crimp Die.

1) Utilize a bullet mould form that includes a roll crimp groove. In 44/40, I used SAECO #446; in 32/20, I designed my own via Mountain Molds.

2) Use a bulky black powder substitute fuel, like that used by the late John Kort--RL-7. I have used 25.0 grains in 44/40 and 12.5 grains in 32/20 in both rifles and revolvers. It leaves behind a few powder granule zombies in revolver barrels, but burns pretty clean in rifle barrels. CCI 500 and 300 pistol primers got the call in both calibers. Black powder ballistics resulted in both calibers, with zero signs of excessive pressure.

 

[fiver]

4198 will do the same.

 

[L Ross]

Sweet ! Did you say 1910 or 2010 ?

Rode gently and put up oiled?

 

[L Ross]

Eddie, have you thought about shooting Black Powder in the .38 w.c.f.'s at least once in awhile? I do in my .44's and they used to foul out around 13 shots into a string. In the olden days not much of an issue, (TV Western shoot 'em ups not withstanding). But today, us wealthy shooters can shoot up more ammo in an afternoon than our great grand daddies used in 10 years.

For me the solution has been "Big Lube" bullets by a guy in Sun Prairie, WI. He was a Black Powder CAShooter frustrated with fouling. He and another CAS shooter came up with 6 cavity moulds based on Lee blocks that solve the fouling problem. As soon as I loaded some up in a Uberti BP frame .44 w.c.f. 7 1/2" bbl. and a replica 1873 with the 26" bbl. I went out and shot them both 25 times each without cleaning or loss of accuracy. I'm about to order the mould for .38 w.c.f. a 190 grain rendition.

By the way, for all of us that use Lee 6 cavity handles, this same guy makes the best "Lee" handles I've seen. Also the quality of the mould itself and ease of use right out of the box was excellent.

I think I want to go to some "falling plates" shoot and use the New Service loader with Black just to hear the whining and coughing.

 

[Glaciers]

For me the solution has been "Big Lube" bullets by a guy in Sun Prairie, WI. He was a Black Powder CAShooter frustrated with fouling. He and another CAS shooter came up with 6 cavity moulds based on Lee blocks that solve the fouling problem

By the way, for all of us that use Lee 6 cavity handles, this same guy makes the best "Lee" handles I've seen. Also the quality of the mould itself and ease of use right out of the box was excellent.

Alright Lynn does this guy offer these molds for sale? and if so how about some contact info.

Edit, Ok I found him, sorry I was just being lazy, plus only on the first cup of coffee.

BIG LUBE®, LLC - BLACK POWDER SHOOTING SUPPLIES​

 

[Cadillac Jeff]

Yup ----even say's he has molds to ship.
I have one of the "slim" in 44 cal. it make's a very nice Little 44 for lite loads I need to work with that one again in the super B H ,it's kinda made for black powder but I might try trailboss in it??
Jeff

oh yea nicely made mold's

 

[smokeywolf]

Edward, a really great score. Congratulations. I'm a very big Winchester lever fan. I particularly fancy those that wear their years as beautifully as yours.

 

[Edward R Southgate]

So far this 94 is my favorite but that may change when the 92 gets here . .32 Special from 1912 ,accurate as they get with anything I put in it. Has the three leaf express type sight , loves to stack bullet holes . Need to take some new pictures of it , these are from the auction I got it from.

 

[Edward R Southgate]

Lynn,
I do shoot black and fake black in ML and cartridge as well . I'll take a look at that mold About 20 years ago I was in the sporting goods section of the local Walmart after hunting season and bought all of the Pyrodex and 777 that they had at $5 per pound for the pyrodex and $8 per pound for Triple7 . I still have a tad over 20lb of the pyrodex RS and 17 lb of Triple7 plus a couple hundred pounds of the real stuff .

 

[CZ93X62]

Fiver--

I've heard similar about the 4198/RL-7 similarity in this application. I have yet to try the 4198 myself in place of the RL-7.

Here is why--some years back, I read an article by Ross Seyfried concerning the large old black powder calibers like 38/55, 40/65, and 45/70. Mr. Seyfried's info was to use the nominal black powder charge--multiply it by 0.4--and use the resulting weight (E.g, 22.0 grains in 38/55, 28.0 grains in 45/70) and get black powder velocities and ballistics from that combo. In 38/55 and 45/70, this has worked well--but it darn sure isn't anywhere near full enough to support a bullet base. In fact, with well-fit bullets in my 38/55 (Win 94) 25.0 grains of 4198 loosened the primer pockets in new Starline brass for me. 5 of those was enough. Ken Waters' data from Pet Loads would take things to 27.0 grains (Lyman #375449). Uh, NO.

I have yet to haul out my 4198 powder and weigh out 16.0 grain in 44/40 cases or 8.0 grains in 32/20 cases and see how full they get. This is an aroundtuit I need to get to. The results with 4198 in the 38/55 caused me a bit of pause, let's just say.

 

[fiver]

that'd pause me too.
my only use of the data is in the smaller wcf cases.
if I want BP speeds in the bigger cases I turn to unique and use the crimp groove on the bullets I have.

on the smaller straight cases like 45 colt and 44 mag using much slower powders like 4895 [and it's two friends on either side] gives the lower speeds with full cases and appropriate pressures.
I only done those cause I had the powder and the time to mess around doing so.

 

[RBHarter]

I did 19,0 H322 in a 45 Colts carbine with a 350 gr ........ I bought a 45-70 shortly after . The goal was to keep it sub sonic and low pressure . Micheal , Ranch Dog , ran the QL data for a 20,000 max "45 ACP compatible" platforms . Yeah that was the minus 15% start loads that went 1280 fps blowing my subs plan all to Hades . Probably 8-9 Unique would have been better . 20/20 right ?

 

[Ian]

if I want BP speeds in the bigger cases I turn to unique and use the crimp groove on the bullets I have.

ME TOO.

 

[Tomme boy]

Pyrodex loses power if opened. It sucks water like a illegal alien sucks gov't resources. I have had it go bad by just age alone. Never been open. You will start by getting. A few click bangs. Then by nothing setting them off. And it is actually more corrosive than real black

 

[CZ93X62]

I really hadn't paid attention to powder column height using 4198 in 25/20, 32/20 (8.0 grains), and 44/40 cartridges (16.0 grains). This started rolling around in my head after I posted yesterday, and I went out to the garage to ponder the question. Lots of IMR-4198 on hand, but naturally there were no empty cases laying around in the three listed calibers.

I got out the next-best choice, the Lee Spoon Set. The 0.7cc spoon measures 8.8 grains of 4198, and the 1.3cc spoon measures 16.3 grains. My eyeball-estimate of the volumes of the spoons and the cases show that all three cases might get 75%-80% loading densities.

I have never tried Pyrodex or 777. I have tried The Holy Black (Goex Flaming Dirt) and in my great-grandpa's Win 73 (44/40) and Colt Bisley (32/20). Owing to lack of lube capacity, both arms fouled out in short order. I suspect that Big Lube Bullets might resolve that issue, as would the use of better-grade BPs. For some, the big boomy report of BP arms makes the hassle of cleaning guns and brass soon after shooting totally worth that extra effort. Your call.

I suggest here that the overall-simplest resolution to the questions posed by reloading these old ones is to find and use a standard-weight bullet design of round flatnose form whose crimp groove sets an overall length that will work in both revolver cylinders and in lever-action mechanisms. A gas check design might be worth having if "High velocity" loads are on the menu; once past 1400 FPS in these leverguns, a GC allows you to fully exploit the potential power available in those systems, around 1800 FPS if you are so inclined.

(ETA--OK, NOW it makes sense. I wrote the initial version while dividing my attention between said writing and Marie commentaries about other unrelated matters. 8.0 and 16.0 grains of 4198. SHEESH.) Sorry about that.

 

[Missionary]

We never had an issue in our muzzle loaders until I tried Pyrodex in our 58 Zouave . First week I was leveling a .57 round ball at a 35 yard doe and snap- psffft. Never had Goex 2F or 3F fail to fire in that rifle and was using musket caps. Doe stood there looking at me wondering just long enough to hear me laughing out loud.
So all we feed "on sale real cheap" Pyro to is our fuse fired 1.1 inch bore naval cannon. Those fuses could set off charcoal.

 

[Edward R Southgate]

We never had an issue in our muzzle loaders until I tried Pyrodex in our 58 Zouave . First week I was leveling a .57 round ball at a 35 yard doe and snap- psffft. Never had Goex 2F or 3F fail to fire in that rifle and was using musket caps. Doe stood there looking at me wondering just long enough to hear me laughing out loud.
So all we feed "on sale real cheap" Pyro to is our fuse fired 1.1 inch bore naval cannon. Those fuses could set off charcoal.

Have had issues with the early Pyrodex pellets , tried them but they were inconsistent in my 1860 Colt . In the rifles I have a nipple that uses a rifle primer and it fires every time with black or Pyrodex , never had an issue using it in cartridges . Not likely to ever find it that cheap again so there is little chance that I would ever buy it again .

 

[fiver]

I remember hodgdon doing a test when the substitutes were first coming out.
I'm sure their version come out on top, but it had something to do with time in the chamber and the percentage of times the powder would ignite after day-1-2-3 etc..
it looks like most all of them fizzle within a week except the one type [I'm sure theirs] which went past a month.
I'd have to go dig out the manual I found it in to remember which one it was for sure though.