Strange Winchester Levergun Question Section

[Rick H]

That whole "common cartridge for rifle and pistol" thing has always escaped me. We mostly use them for different purposes at different distances. If we wanted redundancy we could just carry two of either.

 

[Rockydoc]

For the same reasons I haven't hunted deer with an M1 Carbine,

When I saw the above, I remembered that the largest deer I ever killed was with a M1 carbine. I was 16 years old.

The story goes like this: when in high school, a buddy asked if he could borrow my scoped Savage 99 (300 Savage) to take on a deer hunt at his dad’s hunting lease. Well, his dad was the chief game warden for the whole state of Alabama, and I knew the reputation of that lease. So I said “Yes you can borrow my rifle if I can go on the hunt with y’all”. I got to go. I ground the steel jacket off the nose of several rounds of GI ammo. As I sat in a tree stand I was inundated with turkeys, squirrels and other game, but I knew where the game warden was so I kicked temptation out of the stand and waited patiently. Eventually I saw this huge deer approaching, when I could stand it no longer, I cut loose a barrage little 30 caliber bullets. I think now, 60 some odd years later, that 3 of those bullets hit him. He dropped right there.

That deer was “only” a 9 point, but he weighed, field dressed, no guts, 260 pounds.

 

[RicinYakima]

That whole "common cartridge for rifle and pistol" thing has always escaped me. We mostly use them for different purposes at different distances. If we wanted redundancy we could just carry two of either.

There really hasn't been since the 1920's when people went to town more than twice a year. You would have to be in the real wilds to need a common cartridge and you couldn't have both a rifle and a pistol along.

 

[RicinYakima]

Having shot a lot of coyotes and several really large feral dogs with the 311316 at 1600 f/s, you get about 14 inches on penetration with no big bones hit.

 

[Jeff H]

That whole "common cartridge for rifle and pistol" thing has always escaped me. We mostly use them for different purposes at different distances. If we wanted redundancy we could just carry two of either.

I've not done actual research on this, but I tend to believe that this concept is more of gun writers parroting gun writers, parroting gun writers. Throw in the odd gun shop know-it-all for the sake of validation and voila - we have a foundation of history.

I could go on about this idea all day, but I'll make sure I don't go on too long a tangent here.

Most old-timers I've known, whose lives began in the latter part of the nineteenth century owned ONE GUN, even as we today discuss how ridiculous and impossible that concept is. Among any of them I was related to, none even owned a handgun - a handgun was a wasteful extravagance. Neither has any of those old fellas owned a center-fire other than a shotgun - ONE shotgun. Geographically and economically speaking, this concept might not hold true in everywhere. Here, in the eastern states, especially in "the hills," ranges for deer hunting are close anyway - most of the time. Those olde-timers I knew never saw game like we do today either. Deer-hunting or water-fowl hunting wasn't part of the plan. It was small game; squirrels 'n' rabbits and that was a large percentage of the family protein supply, in addition to small livestock (to include pigs) and birds.

My paternal grandfather probably never shot as many 22s in his entire life as I currently have stashed, and I don't have a large stash by any means, but he never missed a squirrel that I know of either. He had a ratty, non-descript, single-shot bolt-action, of which I could not make out a name or model for wear on the surfaces.

TODAY, I think the "combo-concept" has a lot of merit, especially with "modern" RIMMED PISTOL cartridges, where a carbine can extend the range of a HANDGUN round significantly, but still within a LIMITED range, meaning nothing like that of the 30-06, but certainly more than your snubbie.

COMPATIBILITY and COMMONALITY of components and tooling can be helpful during these periodic droughts, and the small appetite for powder of the smaller case allows me to shoot rifles as well as handguns.

Again, I have no formally accrued data to share, so this is opinion/weak hypothesis, but short of some eastern dandy who had money and time to decide upon and acquire the supposed best gear setup for when he heads west, I think the concept was much less common than we suppose today. Surely it was not overlooked, and doubtless a number of fellas applied the principle, but I don't think it was as common as has been made out in our own time. Just like any history, we tend to observe what the more well-to-do did and the masses remain silent and unaccounted for throughout time.

 

[CZ93X62]

I wasn't throwing shade on the 30 M1 Carbine. It certainly CAN put a deer down, and is in fact legal for deer hunting in Kalifornistan. My biases are rooted in the real-world experiences of GIs I grew up around who had Pacific theater experience with that rifle against the banzai-ing berserkers they dealt with during those campaigns. Their experiences were that the cartridge was not decisive in combat, not like the 30-06 from an M-1 or BAR. I have NEVER understood the military or police perspective that less stopping power in small arms is OK against armed adversaries the same size and weight as game animals you hunt for. That kind of mindset SCREAMS "I don't get shot at for a living, I have people for that."

 

[RicinYakima]

It is regional, at least partly. I live three miles from a 1,375,000 acre Indian Reservation. When I moved here in 1974, the most common rifles were 30/30's and Winchester 1892 32/20's. By far the most common handgun was the 32/20 revolver. Since they had no game laws, they would sit on the ground and shoot them in the moonlight with their revolvers as the deer walked to water here in the desert. This continued until the SKS became available for $99 and the kids sold all the old guns for alcohol and drugs.

 

[Rockydoc]

I personally don’t believe a 30 M1 is adequate for deer. But what did I know at age 16? Besides I wanted to go that hunt and I took what I had left in the closet.

 

[david s]

The long time world record Jordan whitetail buck from 1914 out of Wisconsin was supposedly shot with the 32-20's little brother the 25-20. It was supposed to have weighed in around 400 pounds. I can't begin to imagine how many deer have been taken with the 32-20. It may not be the best choice but it's what people back then had so it was used.

 

[CZ93X62]

No argument with the above. The 7.62 x 39 is the functional equivalent of the 30/30 WCF, both are well-ahead of the 32/20 and the 30 M1 Carbine. Not many have said this out loud, but the M1 Carbine is actually just a self-loading rimless 32/20 HV. How many of us on this board have fire-formed 32/20 brass in our 30 Carbine Blackhawks and used that pressure-customized brass to run our Eardrum Drills?

To paraphrase the late Frank Barnes in his Cartridges of the World, there really is very little that is new under the sun. Good ideas just fade away, and get recycled when the original need arises (again).

 

[RBHarter]

But if I started with a 460 Alaskan or a 4" 45-70/444 BFR then you have a tank killer and a pocket protector (or at least a useful side arm) .

I looked long and hard , and tested for myself , at the numbers , MV/ME vs at x range , against actual numbers from the chronograph .
Smaller calibers gain a lot more velocity from Revolver to Carbine . 38/357 from a 6" Sec 6 to a 18" 1894C gained 370-425 fps depending on the load specifics , a 125 over a full case of H110 would probably get more .

45 ACP and 45 Colts from the 1917 and 7.5" RBH in 16" High Point and 92's was a dead heat within lighting error for every load I tried of 200 fps gain from pistol to rifle with 1 exception . I loaded a 350 RNFP I had made for the 45 Raptor and much like the 9mm with the 148 WC it was an experiment to get a subsonic heavy weight to group at 100 yd ..... The remaining work ups were chronographed in the RBH after the start load in the 92' went 1280 fps with 18.0 H322 the 18.5&19 gr went 700&740 as I recall in the RBH . I didn't see any significant gains from a 16-20-24" Carbine/rifle barrel , in fact if memories serve the 24" barrel was slower than the 20" .

With modern cartridges and raised pressure limits paired with "sophisticated" powders I can't see any reason why the idea of paired guns isn't a thing for the woods/dark timber pack in guys . Build a 1.3 9/38 or 10/40 based in a 30-30 case in a 35,000 psi level with a full case of what like 4227 or 2400 , maybe even a couple of steps slower and you have a PCC hot on the heels at least at the muzzle of the 30-30 it would be nearly twice the case capacity of the mighty 10 mm and you really couldn't hurt a 38-40 if someone slipped up , or accideliberatly shot them as such . Anything suitable for 44 mag would do .

I think that probably the cartridges like the 25&32-20 and up through the 38-40 probably saw enough real gains to make it really viable in a time where 100 yd was the nominal limit for a rifle not of the Buffalo class .

If we go back just a little further say pre 1840 the practical application of 2 muskets and a long and short pistol or a musket and rifle in the same calibers made a huge amount of sense not just from the single measure/flask point but from having either several bags of balls and possible kits or a bag of shot and a bag of ball for 2-4 guns . Think of what a hassle multiple flints were alone much less casting 1 ball at a time in several calibers .

I know that traditionally necked cases and revolvers don't play well , see 256 WM , but that hasn't put a damper on the 357 Sig or 400 Cor Bon as examples , in pistols . Somebody had a plan for those Lipsey RBHs in 40/10/38-40 .

 

[CZ93X62]

I've had a bit of play time with MP-5s in 10mm. THAT is a whole 'nother SMG.

 

[Otony]

While I have always loved the “idea” of a pistol/rifle cartridge combo, the glaring fact is that the chambers and forcing cones (throats) are really cut differently and what works well in one will only do so out of the other by coincidence. You must load to suit the arm, not the “idea”.

But I do own a .357 Magnum (aka Death Ray) rifle, as well as a .44 Special rifle (yes, Special). They might get shot alongside my similarly chambered resolvers, but they typically don’t share the same diet.

 

[fiver]

that would be a pretty sensible room clearing device.

 

[CZ93X62]

The factory Silvertips ran just under 1400 FPS. GET SOME!

 

[L Ross]

There really hasn't been since the 1920's when people went to town more than twice a year. You would have to be in the real wilds to need a common cartridge and you couldn't have both a rifle and a pistol along.

To buy a hunnerd pounds a yeast and some copper line.