Target damage saga continues

[Snakeoil]

The ongoing discussion at the club regarding HV powder coated rifle rounds causing target damage continues on without a solution. Today, it got a bit heated, but remained friendly. The primary offender seems to think that the reason we are beating this drum is because he often beats us. Although the primary issue is target damage, which he also tends to argue is not as bad as damage made some other rounds (we call this denial) the fact that he has a major advantage over the rest of us shooting cast lead bullets at significantly lower velocities is another thing he will not accept. He maintains that his rifle is simply more accurate than ours. I told him flat out that it is common knowledge that the faster the bullet the lower the wind deflection, all other things similar. He laughed at that. So, I went to the web for an article and found a perfect one that talked about the top variables that affect wind deflection. #1 is change in distance and #2 was change in velocity. For a 10% increase in velocity there is a 13.6% reduction in wind deflection. Using those numbers, my 03 shooting a 200 gr bullet at 1424 fps will see roughly 50% more wind deflection than his .308 Tikka pushing a 185 gr bullet at just under 2000 fps.

The funny part about this is he never seems to do well in the .22 silhouette matches. He bought a 40x because he could not get is CZ target rifle to shoot to his satisfaction. And it turns out the 40x can't seem to put the bullets on target at 200 yds either. I wonder if it is because he can't read the wind?

We are trying to keep this from getting personal. Bottom line is he needs to win and will do anything to do so. When he doesn't do well, he's not very happy. But none of us have mentioned his need to win because we all like the guy. It's going to come to a head soon, though. One of the geezers who does not mince words said, "Quit arguing about it and have everyone shoot a round at a new target and then go see which one did the most damage. That will end the discussion once and for all. I suspect that is what we are going to do. I already said I'd bring my chronograph just to keep everyone honest.

God how I hate drama. But there seems to be no avoiding it.

 

[Ian]

A powder coated cast bullet, made of air-cooled wheelweights, will do far more damage to abrasion-resistant steel targets than an equivalent jacketed bullet all things being equal. My 100-yard, 1/2" AR-500 gong is dished and pocked terribly from hundreds of rounds of full-value .308 and .223 cast bullets.

The solution I would offer is that the "offending organism" purchase his own steel targets for the matches and that he take them down for storage in the clubhouse when he's not there.

 

[RBHarter]

Dwell time and KE transfers.

 

[Ian]

Relative core hardness.

 

[popper]

Core hardness and fps. Impact dwell time makes a difference too. Swingers aren't damages as much. Hard cast PCd 168 gr from 308 @ 200 just knocked the paint off the steel - but did knock it over. Muzzle fps = 2400 chronyd. Probably 1800 at target. Shooting many hard cast 145gr BO @ 20 yrds (~1400 fps) at steel, very few pockmarks. Found several remains on the ground, about 1/2 dime size and 1/4" thick. If he continues to gripe, let him get his own targets.

 

[Snakeoil]

Not using AR plate. We expect some dents, but not craters.

 

[fiver]

if he has the advantage, there's nothing stopping the rest of you from powder coating too and taking it away.

i'd solve the issue by not using steel.
there's nothing wrong with making a hole in some paper.

 

[Ian]

Not using AR plate. We expect some dents, but not craters.

I'm really surprised you don't have Swiss cheese if not using at least AR400. He must not be pushing his loads all THAT hard. (scrolls up to re-read the original post)....2000 fps muzzle velocity, that's why. If he was running them at full value you WOULD have Swiss cheese, even at 200 yards. He'd also be kicking your butts worse than he is now.

He needs his own, 1/2" minimum thickness, AR-500, water-cut targets if he's going to play your games. Your range is simply not equipped for what he's got. I guarantee if I lived near you I'd be taking him to task with my bargain store, plastic receiver, 18" suppressed LR-308 and would provide my OWN steel at my own expense because I know what my rifle and loads will do to both steel and meat.

Better yet, do what Lamar suggested and beat the feller at his own game, then pass the hat and buy some better steel for the club or relegate HV stuff to paper on target frames only...if you have the spotting scopes powerful enough to see bullet holes at 400 yards. Or use Shoot'n'See targets. I got several threads on here describing exactly how to do it, together with detailed load data and photos of both targets and chronograph screens that someone like you with real wind/mirage skills could exploit. If you want to give it a whirl, read up and ask questions.

 

[Snakeoil]

This is originally a BPCR club. It has expanded to vintage military and smokeless. Most shoot in the 1200 to 1500 fps range. PC bullets started to show up when we let members shoot modern rifles. IMHO modern rifles should be banned from matches. We also have shooters showing up with modern .22 target rifles for .22 matches. But there is no ammo advantage so they still stuggle with the conditions. Win 52's tend to dominate the matches.

We have never needed AR plate. And I'm told that they tried it and it cracked. All the targets are swingers now. Most are too old to set targets. If I remeber right the rams weigh 75 lbs.

 

[Ian]

I get it, just spitballing. It's tough to run a club to the exclusion of newer, younger members following newer trends. Maybe the modern rifles need a class of their own....and special target set based on the common, cheaper, "modern" steel target shapes and sizes, and make the shooters buy or bring their own. If certified AR-500 plate cracks from bullet impacts it's because it was cut with Bubba's OA torch or CNC plasma....i.e. heat damage. High quality, relatively inexpensive steel targets are available from a number of sources. I buy mine from AR500targets dot com. They often have package deals and sales.

 

[L Ross]

This is originally a BPCR club. It has expanded to vintage military and smokeless. Most shoot in the 1200 to 1500 fps range. PC bullets started to show up when we let members shoot modern rifles. IMHO modern rifles should be banned from matches. We also have shooters showing up with modern .22 target rifles for .22 matches. But there is no ammo advantage so they still stuggle with the conditions. Win 52's tend to dominate the matches.

We have never needed AR plate. And I'm told that they tried it and it cracked. All the targets are swingers now. Most are too old to set targets. If I remeber right the rams weigh 75 lbs.

Boy I hear you Snakeoil. While not poverty stricken I have set up my own range with a lot of mild steel knock down targets. I have one set of NRA regulation 200 yard chickens, 20 buffalos that are a little bigger than the chickens, a bunch of discs from 4" to 22" in knock down and swingers.
My targets have a few dimples and I learned early on that muzzle velocities over 1,800 exacerbated the damage.
I picked up a double set of AR-500 swingers from 4" to 12" and never had a cracking problem and I myself shoot them and allow my friends to shoot them with full velocity jacketed with no damage.
By now I have everyone that shoots here educated as to what loads are acceptable, and because it is my range, what I say goes.
I also have a lot of .22 knock down targets including a full set of .22 BPCR sized silhouettes, 23 prairie dogs, and a lot of discs. These are all 1/4" and they only get shot with .22's.

Oh, and I just read Ian's comment. Yes, watch for deals on the AR-500 targets. That's how I was able to afford a double set of AR-500 gongs. They came with belting straps as hangers and included all of the bolts and washers necessary for hanging them. Hits to the belting straps result in small self healing holes and none have had to be replaced yet.

 

[Bret4207]

Seems like there's always that one guy in any organization that is out for #1 above all else. Never fails! Those are the guys that will knock your rifle off a stand, mess with your sights, key your car, etc. And if there's any booze involved, all bets are off.

 

[300BLK]

NRA silhouette rams were 3/8", usually T1, and weighed 47#. Chickens and pigs were 1/2", turkeys 3/8".

My local club has steel swingers out for anyone to shoot. We're now at 2500+ members , the steel is always out, and shot with everything from 22RF to centerfire magnums. 1/2" AR500 takes a beating at 50 yards, less so at 100 yards, and minimal damage (mostly on the edges) at 200 and 300 yards. They do eventully fail, and invariably crack where the hanger hole is cut through. Bolts and chains are a maintenance issue with centerfire rifle, so we use 3/8" AR500 hooks.

If you're gonna be cheap, use paper targets.

 

[MW65]

Sounds like he is just 'gaming' to win... vs the spirit of the match. At my club we have different classes of matches... blackpowder... vintage milsil... hunting/sporting rifle... rimfire... cowboy... all up to 200yds, and with ammo restrictions (cast above XXX only, otherwise SP allowed) to ensure the targets don't get beaten up.

I'm sure this isn't the first time a club has had an issue or non-issue with this... how did they resolve it? Have ya checked around any other clubs?

 

[Snakeoil]

Seems like there's always that one guy in any organization that it out for #1 above all else. Never fails! Those are the guys that will knock your rifle off a stand, mess with your sights, key your car, etc. And if there's any booze involved, all bets are off.

He's not one of those guys. He just needs to win because it's how he's wired. He otherwise a truly great guy. He was a marine and was a door gunner on helos in VN. He's the only guy I've ever met that talks about the war. I think he needs to. I'm sure it is some kind of insecurity thing. He's been known to stretch the truth in stories once in a while. I'm not talking your normal BS that all guys throw around. I'm talking seriously stretching how fast, how far, how big, etc.. But he's such a good guy that will do anything to help someone that we just overlook it. Nobody's perfect.

We have another member who was a grunt marine and he's got PTSD so bad that he cannot drive. His wife has to bring him to the club. You'd never know it to talk to him. I thought his wife came with him for the ride to the club. That's when I found out that he can't drive. All he told me is he has no control over it. Said if he drives in traffic, he simply freaks out and has to pull over. He's never talked about the war. And you'd otherwise never know he has PTSD.

 

[Snakeoil]

If you're gonna be cheap, use paper targets.

It's not a matter of being cheap. It's a matter of being able to afford it. When you own a 500 yd range surrounded by prime real estate (Saratoga) you have "other" expenses. When they bought the AR targets, they bought 20 each of all 4 animals and it took them a few years to pay off the debt. We don't need AR, the steel we use works fine for reduced cast bullet loads. The other issue is the PC gets impregnated into the target which makes weld repair more difficult. You can't just weld up a pit. You have to excavate first. My solution was to simply ban PC bullets. They are just another form of a jacket and not in the spirit of the club. And without PC you can't push the bullets that fast unless you want a lead lined barrel. I think that is what they are going to do, as soon as the Prez grows a pair and announces the new policy. He's another great guy, but the poster child for procrastination.

Personally, I'm about done with the whole discussion. I've even written up the guidelines for them and the prez just sits on them. I realize that nobody wants to alienate another member. It would be one thing if they were arseholes, but they are not. They just don't get it. But all they do is continue to complain about the target damage and a few others complain of the unfair advantage they have in high wind conditions. If you aren'g going to do anything about it, quit bitchin' about it. Another issue with the club is we do not have regular meetings. So, the membership cannot bring up new business, make motions, etc.. That's really the root of the problem. The other issue is, the PC/HV bullets kinda snuck in under the cover of darkness. It's the old "can't put the genie back in the lamp" thing. The club has had a long standing rule of no jacketed ammo on steel targets and no jacketed beyond 300 yds due to houses downrange on the other side of the 500 yd berm and our property. I tend to think that the 300 yd rule really accomplishes nothing, but I understand why they did it. Anyway, nobody knew what PC bullets were and when it was described as paint, well, nobody cared. My partner even tried them out, but at our lower velocities and they were like throwing rocks. But a few shooters figured out the advantages and started using them.

I realizing that I'm whining about this like I'm accusing others of doing. But I know what the solution is. However, as just another peon, which is what I want to remain, I can only offer suggestions, which I've done.

 

[Bret4207]

He's not one of those guys. He just needs to win because it's how he's wired. He otherwise a truly great guy. He was a marine and was a door gunner on helos in VN. He's the only guy I've ever met that talks about the war. I think he needs to. I'm sure it is some kind of insecurity thing. He's been known to stretch the truth in stories once in a while. I'm not talking your normal BS that all guys throw around. I'm talking seriously stretching how fast, how far, how big, etc.. But he's such a good guy that will do anything to help someone that we just overlook it. Nobody's perfect.

We have another member who was a grunt marine and he's got PTSD so bad that he cannot drive. His wife has to bring him to the club. You'd never know it to talk to him. I thought his wife came with him for the ride to the club. That's when I found out that he can't drive. All he told me is he has no control over it. Said if he drives in traffic, he simply freaks out and has to pull over. He's never talked about the war. And you'd otherwise never know he has PTSD.

Sounds like you have a longer fuse than I do. I worked with a lot of guys in the Corps and on the job that had PTSD, although we didn't call it that then, from Vietnam and later the Gulf. I have all the sympathy in the world, but there comes a point where some of those guys take things a bit too far. That's for you to determine, but if he's messing up the targets that bad you're going to have to do something regardless of any PTSD.

Stretching stories- I enjoy a good lie, especially a creative one told by a convincing liar! OTOH, there are those that have no talent when it comes to lying. Sad to see, for example, a fisherman or hunter who can't add 3 lbs or 100 yards to a tale. Whats' the fun in telling a story if you don't massage a fact or add a bit of color to the tale?!! What's sad is the old guys that get halfway through a story, well before the massaging of fact begins, and they forget what the story was about in the first place! I find myself doing that occasionally now! So I lie a little and blame it all on the meds!!!

 

[Bret4207]

NRA silhouette rams were 3/8", usually T1, and weighed 47#. Chickens and pigs were 1/2", turkeys 3/8".

My local club has steel swingers out for anyone to shoot. We're now at 2500+ members , the steel is always out, and shot with everything from 22RF to centerfire magnums. 1/2" AR500 takes a beating at 50 yards, less so at 100 yards, and minimal damage (mostly on the edges) at 200 and 300 yards. They do eventully fail, and invariably crack where the hanger hole is cut through. Bolts and chains are a maintenance issue with centerfire rifle, so we use 3/8" AR500 hooks.

If you're gonna be cheap, use paper targets.

I wonder if it would be possible to weld a hanger onto the top edges of the target rather than boring a hole into it? Of course if it's heat treated there's that to look into, but if they all crack at the hole it might be worth a shot...no pun intended.

 

[462]

He was a marine and was a door gunner on helos in VN. He's the only guy I've ever met that talks about the war.

Warning: Thread drift
I've been reluctant to say anything, but the fishy smell has become too overpowering.
Marine Viet Nam helicopter door gunner? Never heard of one, that was an Army occupation.
Even those of us who returned to the World never discussed our experiences -- not even among ourselves let along civilians -- unless asked.

 

[300BLK]

I wonder if it would be possible to weld a hanger onto the top edges of the target rather than boring a hole into it? Of course if it's heat treated there's that to look into, but if they all crack at the hole it might be worth a shot...no pun intended.

The welded area was always the first place to crack and break.