Testing alloy and powder

[Brad]

Been doing some load and alloy testing lately.
Rifle is a rebarrel 112 Savage in a heavy BR type stock. It wears a 30 inch Krieger barrel. Cartridge is a short 06. Cases are formed from new Hornady brass as I have a bunch of them. Chamber is tight necked at .337 so I have to turn the necks.
Case capacity is roughly midway between a 308 and an 06.
The goal is to see what sort of accuracy can be obtained while pushing the velocity envelope with cast. I'm not after the smallest group possible but rather the smallest possible group at velocities over 2500 fps.

A few weeks back I discovered the max pressure, at least with RE17, and my water dropped range scrap. Today I will be shooting HT range scrap, heated to 450 for an hour then quenched, but with RE19. Will the slower powder and slightly harder bullets prevent the shotgun patterns as pressure rises?
I am also looking at same charges of RE17 but with a different alloy, Lyman 2. In the future those charges will be fired with an alloy of 1.6% each Sn/Sb. I need to make up another low tin but higher antimony alloy and then add some tin to that too.
I want to get a personal handle on how alloy and powder burn rate interact. Gonna take a bunch of time and shooting but isn't that why I'm here?

 

[Brad]

Air cooled Lyman 2 did fair any better than the air cooled range scrap. Get above 40K psi with RE17 and it starts going to hell. Will heat treat some Lyman 2 bullets and see how that makes a difference.
The real eye opener was the 450 degree heat treated range scrap and RE19. A case full, 51.5 gr gave just over 2600 fps and a nice 1.5 inch 5 shot group.
I will try a few other alloys with the RE19 loads I shot today and see how they do. Need to heat treat some more bullets and give em some time to age.

 

[358156hp]

Just a thought I wanted to share. I've seen mention of using very slow burning powders to increase shot to shot uniformity. If you run out of space again, you might consider going even slower. This came about after talking to a guy using H860 in 30-06. He claimed he was experiencing excellent shot to shot uniformity, and his accuracy improved greatly with cast bullets as well. I've always meant to try this, and hopefully somebody here has had some experience doing this because the concept fascinates me.

 

[Brad]

I would like to get some WC860 type powder, it is certainly cheap in large quantities. With a booster charge I could easily get 2400 in this rifle.
I was working away from RE19 earlier as I never got the results I wanted from it. I think that what I discovered is something Rick knew, my powder curve wasn't right for the alloy. I needed to use more powder to get the pressure up enough from my alloy and heat treat.

 

[9.3X62AL]

I have some experience using WC-860 in 30-06 with Lyman #311291 and the Lee 200 grain in 92/6/2 alloy--both loaded with 100% load density (60.0 grains) in W-W brass using Federal 215 primers. The Lymans shot OK, clocking between 1930 to 2040 FPS. The increased bullet weight of the Lee seemed to enhance combustion--the Lees got 1975 to 2015 FPS, and groups sizes (five 5-shot groups at 100 yards) were significantly smaller--averages were 2.10" vs. 1.55". I have a lot more of these loads on deck for testing, but a 250 mile move--illness--and setting up a new shop have chewed into my hobby time badly for the past 6 months.

 

[Brad]

Ah yes, life. Amazing how it interferes with the best made plans.
Have you ever tried a booster charge with the WC860?

 

[9.3X62AL]

Not in the 30-06 or the 6.5 x 55; I have in 45-70.

Briefly, in 6.5 x 55 I loaded 55.0 grains into R-P brass with F-215 primers and seated 140 grain Hornady spitzers (#2630) just to see what occurred. Buckshot on CB claimed he got 1896-level ballistics from such loads in his Mausers. I have a Ruger 77R in 6.5 Swede, and I got a very consistent 2475 FPS and small SDs from its 22" barrel, and groups in the 7/8"-1.1" range. I would happily hunt such loads for muleys or elk. Sounds a whole lot like the 1896 results Rick/Buckshot was talking about.

The 30-06 results you've read already.

In the 45-70, I have used 6.0 grains of IMR-4198 followed by 48.0 grains of WC-860 under the Lee 405 grain flatbase RN in both a Ruger #1 and a Marlin 1895. This load is slightly above 100% density, and acts much like a black powder column would in a loaded-cartridge situation within a tubular magazine--the column provides supplemental support for the bullet base in addition to that provided by any crimp at the case mouth. These rounds do "shunt" roughly down a levergun's tubular magazine.

W-W cases get the call here, with F-215 primers. Velocity is in the 1873-era ballpark, 1300-1325 FPS in both barrels. Initial trials with 54 grains of WC-860 alone made A MESS--no end of unburned powder granules that poured out the muzzle when it was inclined downward. 850-900 FPS was all the bullets could do. 2.0 x 4198/52.0 x 860 cleaned things up a little, but still a mess. Velocity pushed past 1000 FPS......barely. 4.0 x 4198/50.0 x 860 cleaned things up considerably, and got bullets to 1125-1150 FPS. At the 6.0 x 4198/48.0 x 860 level I achieved a trash-free bore and 1300-1325 FPS. I stopped the work at this point, loaded up a bunch of ammo using this recipe, and have been hunting with it ever since. No deer or other big game with it to date, but 1300 FPS with a 405 grain bullet from the 45-70 has 140-odd years of game-field R&D behind it......no new trails to blaze here.

At the time I began messing around with WC-860, it could be had for $3.00/lb. plus hazmat and shipping. Since then, it has gone up considerably, but remains less per pound than commercial fuels which have disappeared during The Great 21st Century Component Droughts. Is it worth messing with? Your call. I still have a flask and a half sitting around, and it will get used up eventually. I'll buy more if there is nothing else to buy, but at present pricing I'm not sure how much "saving" is getting done.

 

[Ian]

One thing I've noticed in these recent component droughts is the relatively reliable availability of the 50 bmg/20mm range of both canister and surplus powders. With a little judicious duplexing, these powders can be a way to keep shooting even if the cost per pound and required load density/volume no longer make such powder choices the 'bargain' they once were. Cast bullets tend to respond well to extended pressure curves these types of propellants provide, and accuracy can be excellent too as long as the ignition consistency issues in small arms applications are mitigated through the use of boosters, buffers, heavy-for-caliber bullets, etc.

 

[9.3X62AL]

Availability and tractability for the purpose are good points, Ian. I've been fortunate that given past experience with "droughts" I've made a point of "shortage-proofing" my componentry supply to enable sight-ins and hunting activities without too much concern about running out. Hunting activities are my real bottom line--I do enjoy the esoteric "chases" also, but if push comes to shove the end-game is the game field.

 

[freebullet]

Brad I've got a reasonable stash of Imr 7383. I would give you a pound to try if you share the results. It acts very slow in large cases. Not as slow as 860 though, similar to 4831 or 4350.

I also set up group buys with local folks to get the Bartlett powders without being married to an entire case. I think we got the 7383 for around 8$ pound delivered.

The fast surplus powders have been nonexistent or overpriced for some time now though.

 

[9.3X62AL]

I could never get the warm, fuzzy feelings for IMR 7383 that I got for other milsurp powders I've tried. Too many people whose opinions I respected gave warnings about peaky behavior as you approached the upper end of its usage window. I gave the stuff away to an experimenter that wasn't as big a chicken as I was about such matters.

I agree that the more useful milsurps like WC-844 and -846 have becomes as costly as commercial fuels. Not that either class of propellants has gotten easier to find of late. Whatta mess the market has been in, going on 4 years now.

 

[John]

I have had decent luck with 860/872 in the 06. Using Buckshots data from Castpics or wit 3 gr kicker of 3031 gave good accuracy. Still not brave enough to run checks over a chrony.

 

[Brad]

I have shot thousands and thousands of gas checks over my chronograph with no trouble. The front is covered with specks of lube to prove it!
Now if I had a mould that was a loose fit with checks it might scare me but I don't use any moulds like that.

I really need to get some WC860 type powder. I just hate asking the wife.

 

[Ian]

Magneto Speed chrono is "checkproof" and works great with cast bullets. That said, I've put at least a thousand across my F1 and I guess my Hornady checks just don't come off.

 

[Brad]

I would not want to shoot the old Lyman slip on checks over a Chrony. Those things came off way too easily. Non crimping checks aren't made anymore for a reason.

 

[Ian]

Yep. The same reason I never bought into the DIY gas check thing. I'll pay 3 cents a piece for tapered, copper skirts, thank you very much. The only DIY checks I've made were stamped out of manilla folder material.

 

[Brad]

I don't make my own as I have more money than free time. If I shoot 50 dollars of checks a year I call it a good investment. That money in checks means I spent a whole lot more on primers and powder.

 

[Ian]

I buy 1K every time I order from Midway, I just grit my teeth an add them to the cart because they've been pretty reliably in stock and that isn't always a certain thing. In the long run I don't miss the money.

 

[freebullet]

Brad I'd buy two jugs of 860 if you want to order it. You have to order 6 jugs to get the hazmat waived.

http://www.gibrass.com/gunpowder.html

 

[9.3X62AL]

I use Hornady checks primarily, there are some Gator 6mm checks in the garage somewhere and even a few older Lyman checks still knocking about. I am using fewer checks than in the past, and a lot more plain-base designs of heavier weight--esp. in handguns.