The 33-47

[Missionary]

I recently saw a short mention of the 33-47 by J. Jim here.
So I am wondering a bit about this cartridge. From what I found on webs it is the simple "solution" to a worn out 32 Winchester chamber ? So this must be a bit before my introduction to the 32 Winchester which was in 1964 in a Marlin 336.
So any tid-bit you can add to my meager information base will be appreciated.

 

[Snakeoil]

I've never heard it referred to as a .33-47. But Harry Pope was a fan of the .33 and I believe it was he who came up with the idea. It was a solution to reviving worn out .32-40 barrels on target rifles. Simply clean up the worn out bore to .33 caliber.

I only know this because my .32-40 High Wall seems to have had its barrel freshened at some point. It's not a .33 and many more knowledgeable than me all thought it had been opened up to .33 when I told him that the bore appeared to be oversize. But slugging the bore proved that it was not a .33 and just an enlarged .32.

I thought we might be talking about a different cartridge here since the .32-40 obviously was not designed to hold 47 gr of BP. But I found this on the CPA website. Note the comment about Stevens-Pope rifles being made new in this caliber. This had to be when Pope was working for Stevens.

.33-40 – Sometimes called the .33-47, this caliber is merely the .32-40 with .338 groove rifling. It was originally made to enable shooters to get a new barrel by just rerifling a worn out or damaged barrel, but there were a number of barrels originally made in this caliber, especially as Stevens-Popes. It is easy to tell if an original Stevens-Pope barrel has been rerifled by Stevens, as the marking on the underside of the barrel is changed. In these days, it is a simple matter to use a 14” twist Douglas .338 barrel. .33 bullets should be 20 grains heavier than .32s, and another grain of powder can be used. This caliber shoots very well indeed, and it is surprising that it is seldom used in modern made rifles.

 

[Missionary]

Thank you Rob ! That is a far better explanation than my search turned up.

 

[JustJim]

I think the .33-47 I've mentioned here was probably the HiWall I had. Originally a .32-40, re-bored by Pope, set up for breech/muzzle loading, complete with a Pope mould, re/decapper, instructions, and receipt with notes and test target. On the receipt, Pope called it a .33-47, so I deferred to him. When I traded into it, I was given several pounds of old powders so was able to use Pope's recommended load, a duplex of King's Semi Smokeless and some high-grade Dupont BP. Great rifle; the bum who owns it now swore he'd keep shooting it but decided to retire it as a "priceless historical artifact".

I thought the cartridge was a (slightly) better choice than .32-40 for our Nebraska winds. (I really prefer a good .38-55, but even in a 13# rifle the recoil gets to you a 100-shot match.) A friend had a shot-out Winchester 94 .32-40 re-bored to .33-47, but in that role (smokeless powder and jacketed bullets on game) it wasn't any better than a .32-40--and it didn't have the Pope magic.

Years ago, I was at a gun show bemoaning having missed a Krag at a local gun store. That was my Krag luck in those days, a day late or a dollar short. A friend at the show said he had one he'd sell me for $250 IIRC--sporterized, but a Krag. Since I wanted a shooter, I didn't care, and the deal was done.

I took it to the Lincoln Ike the next day, shot well over my head, and was very pleased with the rifle (even if it did have a pine pistol grip scabbed on to the cut-down stock). Took it home, stripped it down, and saw that the BOTTOM of the barrel was marked H M Pope. I contacted the seller, told him what happened and what I found, and asked if he'd made a mistake selling me the rifle so cheap. He told me he knew about the barrel, and that he figured I was the only person he knew who would enjoy having the rifle as much as he had. My intro to Pope's magic.

After some research I figured that someone had acquired an orphan barrel and put it on the Krag. Pope would have used better sights!

 

[Missionary]

Thank you JIm !
That was a good read about two fine old rifles.

 

[L Ross]

I think the .33-47 I've mentioned here was probably the HiWall I had. Originally a .32-40, re-bored by Pope, set up for breech/muzzle loading, complete with a Pope mould, re/decapper, instructions, and receipt with notes and test target. On the receipt, Pope called it a .33-47, so I deferred to him. When I traded into it, I was given several pounds of old powders so was able to use Pope's recommended load, a duplex of King's Semi Smokeless and some high-grade Dupont BP. Great rifle; the bum who owns it now swore he'd keep shooting it but decided to retire it as a "priceless historical artifact".

I thought the cartridge was a (slightly) better choice than .32-40 for our Nebraska winds. (I really prefer a good .38-55, but even in a 13# rifle the recoil gets to you a 100-shot match.) A friend had a shot-out Winchester 94 .32-40 re-bored to .33-47, but in that role (smokeless powder and jacketed bullets on game) it wasn't any better than a .32-40--and it didn't have the Pope magic.

Years ago, I was at a gun show bemoaning having missed a Krag at a local gun store. That was my Krag luck in those days, a day late or a dollar short. A friend at the show said he had one he'd sell me for $250 IIRC--sporterized, but a Krag. Since I wanted a shooter, I didn't care, and the deal was done.

I took it to the Lincoln Ike the next day, shot well over my head, and was very pleased with the rifle (even if it did have a pine pistol grip scabbed on to the cut-down stock). Took it home, stripped it down, and saw that the BOTTOM of the barrel was marked H M Pope. I contacted the seller, told him what happened and what I found, and asked if he'd made a mistake selling me the rifle so cheap. He told me he knew about the barrel, and that he figured I was the only person he knew who would enjoy having the rifle as much as he had. My intro to Pope's magic.

After some research I figured that someone had acquired an orphan barrel and put it on the Krag. Pope would have used better sights!

Yup, yup, good read. Just to think about having a complete Pope muzzle breech loader gives me the vapors, much less having the original powders to play with it as it was intended.
I dally with the idea of selling the Ballard Gun Co. Schoyen styled rifle in my avatar every so often. Balderdash! I must get it out and shoot it! When I die they can throw it in a dumpster for all I'll care. I don't have to go to matches to shoot it, I can plink steel off the 210 yard rail with a nice slow breech seating pace and pretend I can shoot.

 

[Snakeoil]

Finding that Pope barreled Krag had to put a huge grin on your face.

I think the .33-47 I've mentioned here was probably the HiWall I had. Originally a .32-40,

Shame you sold that old High Wall. I would love to own that rifle today. And you could be sure it would get shot... a lot.

The 94 turned into a .33-47 must've had the chamber recut at well if my rifle is any guide. With the fatter bullet, the round would not chamber in my rifle. It would be an interference fit up by the case mouth.

 

[CZ93X62]

IIRC, nominal 33 caliber bullets came in two diameters--.333" and later in .338". Both Ackley and Barnes mentioned this in their writings.

 

[JustJim]

The Pope Krag was a surprise, wish it still had the Pope chamber but beggars and choosers. . . . The chamber on the re-bored 94 in 33-47 was bored to accept a dummy round loaded on brass fireformed in the high wall Pope gun, then the barrel was rifled. It wasn't a "bad" little rifle, it was just that the chambering didn't offer any advantages in that context.

L Ross, I took the rifle to Golden shortly after acquiring it. The experience there was enough to turn me off schuetzen competition (and I really wanted to shoot that rifle in competition). About half the people I talked with told me I was an idiot for wanting to shoot an old rifle when I could have a modern rifle chambered for the 32 Dell, the other half kept grabbing the rifle and wanting to buy it. I stood the rifle in a rack while observing one shooter and some fine fellow dumped some sand down the barrel. The ASSRA was apparently having a membership drive and someone in charge misunderstood: apparently thought "membership drive" meant "drive members away".

Nichevo, just not my cup of tea.

I played with the high wall Pope for a while before finding it what was supposed to be a good home. I've shot a few matches with breech seaters, but after that first experience never gotten serious about it.

But Pope barrels are out there, if you're lucky. One rifle I built for bench shooting had an orphan 25 cal Pope barrel fitted to a 40x action, chambered for the 6PPC opened up to 25 cal. (I should point out some ABSOLUTE IDIOT who owned it before me filed/ground the breech threads off the barrel--I had to have it sleeved so it could be threaded for the 40x.) At gunshows I occasionally see a certain orphan Pope barrel for a Winder musket, chambered for the 22 short. Pope wrote that he could make a barrel for a Winchester without having the complete rifle, so I'm guessing the barrel would twist right on a low wall.

 

[Missionary]

"Dump sand down the barrel" !
That is the kind of membership that should be taken out behind a berm and encouraged to take a long walk away to another sport.
Gamers have ruined more than we will ever understand.

 

[L Ross]

The Pope Krag was a surprise, wish it still had the Pope chamber but beggars and choosers. . . . The chamber on the re-bored 94 in 33-47 was bored to accept a dummy round loaded on brass fireformed in the high wall Pope gun, then the barrel was rifled. It wasn't a "bad" little rifle, it was just that the chambering didn't offer any advantages in that context.

L Ross, I took the rifle to Golden shortly after acquiring it. The experience there was enough to turn me off schuetzen competition (and I really wanted to shoot that rifle in competition). About half the people I talked with told me I was an idiot for wanting to shoot an old rifle when I could have a modern rifle chambered for the 32 Dell, the other half kept grabbing the rifle and wanting to buy it. I stood the rifle in a rack while observing one shooter and some fine fellow dumped some sand down the barrel. The ASSRA was apparently having a membership drive and someone in charge misunderstood: apparently thought "membership drive" meant "drive members away".

Nichevo, just not my cup of tea.

I played with the high wall Pope for a while before finding it what was supposed to be a good home. I've shot a few matches with breech seaters, but after that first experience never gotten serious about it.

But Pope barrels are out there, if you're lucky. One rifle I built for bench shooting had an orphan 25 cal Pope barrel fitted to a 40x action, chambered for the 6PPC opened up to 25 cal. (I should point out some ABSOLUTE IDIOT who owned it before me filed/ground the breech threads off the barrel--I had to have it sleeved so it could be threaded for the 40x.) At gunshows I occasionally see a certain orphan Pope barrel for a Winder musket, chambered for the 22 short. Pope wrote that he could make a barrel for a Winchester without having the complete rifle, so I'm guessing the barrel would twist right on a low wall.

Yeah the cliqueishness of schuetzen shooters can be off putting. I quit competition after a couple of experiences of being made to feel like an outsider.

 

[Snakeoil]

I stood the rifle in a rack while observing one shooter and some fine fellow dumped some sand down the barrel.

And that guy was still standing several seconds after doing that?? I suspect I would have found myself spending the night in jail had it been my rifle.

Pope wrote that he could make a barrel for a Winchester without having the complete rifle, so I'm guessing the barrel would twist right on a low wall.

This was because Winchester standards and specs were so precise that any barrel from any High Wall will screw up perfectly to another action.

 

[Tom]

I stood the rifle in a rack while observing one shooter and some fine fellow dumped some sand down the barrel.

Having never shot competitively except for some Leo stuff, (no rankings, just sharpshooter/expert/master, etc.), this blows my mind. How in the heck could you feel proud of winning knowing you cheated?

 

[Glaciers]

Having never shot competitively except for some Leo stuff, (no rankings, just sharpshooter/expert/master, etc.), this blows my mind. How in the heck could you feel proud of winning knowing you cheated?

Well there is that, but doing that to ANY rifle is grounds for a serious thrashing, real serious. I have a high regard for the workmanship of a bygone era.

 

[L Ross]

Having never shot competitively except for some Leo stuff, (no rankings, just sharpshooter/expert/master, etc.), this blows my mind. How in the heck could you feel proud of winning knowing you cheated?

I used to ask myself that about the New England Patriots back when I cared about such stuff.

 

[Snakeoil]

How in the heck could you feel proud of winning knowing you cheated?

It's an insecurity thing. Had a friend go thru a similar set of circumstances, only much more dangerous at a MotoGiro bike event. It was held on the Left Coast and our boy had won a free entry to the event by winning an event here. He's a serious flat track racer and a superb ability course rider. The man is focused to say the least. The event was a 4 day event if I remember right. He won the first day and that truly ruffled the feathers of the CA crowd. That night, they sabotaged his bike. He found the sabotage in the morning, was able to fix it, start late and still won that day's event. Someone slept with the bike every night after that and he ended up winning the event. I don't remember what they did to his bike, but it was bad. Something like loosening his axle bolts, putting a cut in his fuel line or similar nastiness.

 

[RBHarter]

One yr at the Air Races in Reno after the crew chief got busted for a 12-1 blower ,the class can only run a 10-1 , we had a gross over rich problem....... apparently it didn't occur to the chief that if you cange the blower you have to change the pressure carburator also . We got that changed and the chief went to sit in the stands the rest of the week . Some how or other debris got in the fuel . Remembering that this is an air cooled 1340 CID sucking up 40-50 gallons an hour with 6.65 psi of boost at 200 mph with 15-18' between the wing tips and the sage brush if the pilot is driving a good line in the turns around a 5.3 mile course . Fortunately the fuel starvation came after we qualified and the pilot recognized the falling manifold pressure , rising head temp , and didn't continue with his practice laps . We were 15-18 mph off the gold pace and while strong competition in the bronze we were at best 5th of 9 in the silver . We would have to finish 3 or better in 3 years to even have a shot at the silver race because T6s just don't have maydays and breaks ....... We never did find out who did the deed . We borrowed a $3000 carburetor from one of the Gold race guys swapped it out shipped ours and purged the fuel system.......now you know how a 61 B160 IHC 1-1/2 ton truck ended up with 55 gallons of 130 octane avgas in it that it literally couldn't burn . With that and a proper reset of the points and ignition advance as well as a little adjustment of the prop governor we got into the silver and finished 3rd . It was a good year .

The best sabotage story however comes from the Hawker Hurricane that was shot down in a drive by shooting 3 months before the races . The sheet metal was fixed and both holes in the oil tank welded up . Fresh paint applied test run 7-8 flight hours logged , 1700 miles at 250 mph cruise speeds . At some point the lodged bullet that rebounded instead of exiting shook loose and got in the oil pick up tube . I understand that dry sump Hawker Sidley engines actually don't lose a lot of oil even missing cylinders but they don't oil for beans if they can't get the oil out of the tank .

 

[Michael]

Yeah the cliqueishness of schuetzen shooters can be off putting. I quit competition after a couple of experiences of being made to feel like an outsider.

Had a similar experience at a BP match this summer, it wasn't the first time. After a some discussion between my wife and I , we're done except for one. Not worth it, better things to do like weighing bird shot checking for uniformity.

Pity, competitive shooting in many disciplines is dying and the some of the regulars who see themselves as big fish in a little pond can't figure out why people leave and new ones never come back. Even worse further promotion of the discipline dies right along with their activity.

 

[Snakeoil]

Remembering that this is an air cooled 1340 CID sucking up 40-50 gallons an hour with 6.65 psi of boost at 200 mph with 15-18' between the wing tips and the sage brush if the pilot is driving a good line in the turns around a 5.3 mile course .

Maybe you told us earlier, but what was the plane, RB?

 

[Snakeoil]

Had a similar experience at a BP match this summer, it wasn't the first time. After a some discussion between my wife and I , we're done except for one. Not worth it, better things to do like weighing bird shot checking for uniformity.

Pity, competitive shooting in many disciplines is dying and the some of the regulars who see themselves as big fish in a little pond can't figure out why people leave and new ones never come back. Even worse further promotion of the discipline dies right along with their activity.

I really want to believe that that kind of stuff is a rarity in the shooting sports. I have never personally experienced it. I actually had someone accidently step on a gun rack (dumb move) and my brand new trap gun went flying. I was in the clubhouse when it happened and he came and told me. I looked at the gun and found that the stock was now cracked behind the top tang. He was not happy. But he did pay for a new stock to be fitted to the gun.

The attitude is 180 degrees from "screw the other guy" at Wilton. Sure, we compete and we like to win and we bust each other chops over winning and losing. But there is not a shooter at the club who is not willing to help out another shooter. Equipment is loaned, advise given, coaching provided and on and on. When we get new shooters, we treat them like old friends and make them feel welcome. And if they beat us, well, it just means we need to sharpen our game.

Same can be said for Forbes Club, who has the 1000 yd range. When I tried F-class for the first time, I had people offering the use of 2000 rests, tips on reading the conditions at extended yardages and kind words when I shot well. Maybe we New Yawkas are not so bad after all, huh?