USSR
Finger Lakes Region of NY
Actually, fiver, the .38 Special +P load is a rendition of the famous FBI Load. Very effective in snubbies, and 945fps out of a 2.5" barrel is nothing to sneeze at.
Don
Types of leading and cause/fix
- Thread starter Brad
- Start date
Actually, fiver, the .38 Special +P load is a rendition of the famous FBI Load. Very effective in snubbies, and 945fps out of a 2.5" barrel is nothing to sneeze at.
Don
gman
Well-Known Member
For the velocity/pressures you are using that alloy for it looks like it's working very well. In my opinion none of these guys were bashing you. They were just making a point. There is a lot of knowledge on this forum with guys who will gladly help if asked. I just would absolutely hate to see any bs start over a conversation. I mean no offense to anyone.
F
freebullet
Guest
You get a large enough hunk of pure pb moving fast enough & it can indeed show you cracking. It's not always a sign of better or poorer performance. There is more to it than that.
To say yours works better than Rick's is a bit over the top. Each alloy is a women all unto herself. The intended purpose, velocity, fit, ect. all play a critical role in what works best for each person, purpose, & gun. That's not to even mention the accomplishments he's made in handgun shooting.
There is generally no reason to feel attacked here. Just a little more talking can usually help understanding. It is also perfectly acceptable to respectfully disagree.
Most times I find that I'm the cause of my leading, all boils down to what I did.
To say yours works better than Rick's is a bit over the top. Each alloy is a women all unto herself. The intended purpose, velocity, fit, ect. all play a critical role in what works best for each person, purpose, & gun. That's not to even mention the accomplishments he's made in handgun shooting.
There is generally no reason to feel attacked here. Just a little more talking can usually help understanding. It is also perfectly acceptable to respectfully disagree.
Most times I find that I'm the cause of my leading, all boils down to what I did.
Ian
Notorious member
oh jeez the actual thread.
there is another type of leading that some overlook and that is where other junk already in the barrel pulls alloy away from the bullet and holds it in place.
Oh yeah, forgot about that one. Crusty rust specks and old copper are bad about doing that.
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fiver
Well-Known Member
that 38 load is close to the black powder 45 colt load, only smaller [okay I couldn't resist the ford Fairlane movie joke]
the 40-1 alloy is also why the 357 got a bad rap back in the day, you couldn't run the factory loads with the factory 40-1 alloy [which had served so well since 1873] without filling the barrel full of putty.
the 40-1 alloy is also why the 357 got a bad rap back in the day, you couldn't run the factory loads with the factory 40-1 alloy [which had served so well since 1873] without filling the barrel full of putty.
Perhaps this will be more acceptable to Don.
SWW +2% Sn @ 7 BHN (pure lead is 5 BHN) also fired into water @ 850 fps, Lyman devastator. I worked up this load as a defensive load to limit penetration. Even this alloy is starting to split with reduced velocity when fired into water. Water is an extremely hard medium for testing bullets and bears no resemblance to bullet performance in living targets. Shooting into water only serves to demonstrate how well the bullet hangs together under extreme conditions.
Right about 99.99% of all my shooting would fail miserably with this alloy. Very low pressure/velocity is it's only use to me, all the rest of my casting, shooting is with 2/2/96, CWW +2% Sn either air cooled or heat treated.
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SWW +2% Sn @ 7 BHN (pure lead is 5 BHN) also fired into water @ 850 fps, Lyman devastator. I worked up this load as a defensive load to limit penetration. Even this alloy is starting to split with reduced velocity when fired into water. Water is an extremely hard medium for testing bullets and bears no resemblance to bullet performance in living targets. Shooting into water only serves to demonstrate how well the bullet hangs together under extreme conditions.
Right about 99.99% of all my shooting would fail miserably with this alloy. Very low pressure/velocity is it's only use to me, all the rest of my casting, shooting is with 2/2/96, CWW +2% Sn either air cooled or heat treated.
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A fine example of an alloy suited to a specific use. Sort of like BR shooters who often use Linotype. Each load has specific needs from an alloy and it is up to us to fill that need.
I know that a too hard bullet, worse if slightly undersized, tends to lead the throats and beginning of the bore.
What does a too soft alloy cause, besides poor accuracy?
What causes leading towards the muzzle? I don't buy into the "running out of lube" theory.
I know that a too hard bullet, worse if slightly undersized, tends to lead the throats and beginning of the bore.
What does a too soft alloy cause, besides poor accuracy?
What causes leading towards the muzzle? I don't buy into the "running out of lube" theory.
Kevin Stenberg
Well-Known Member
Without a bore scope how can a person tell if he or she has an antimony wash in the barrel? How will an Sb washed barrel affect bullet flight? What are the ways to clean a Sb washed barrel?
side question. What is C.O.R.E.?
side question. What is C.O.R.E.?
fiver
Well-Known Member
you can see the grey antimony wash by eye.
you'll see it right near the muzzle just by turning your back towards the sun, I have never tried to get it out [shrug]
it doesn't hurt anything and is probably helpful to have in there.
think about it like the zinc build up on the bearings in your cars engine, it's kind of a crackled micro-thin coating that holds lubricant.
core is consistency of residuals.
the trick is,, well, the consistency you want the 'stuff' in your barrel to remain as unaffected by temperature and time as possible.
think about a buffed floor in a store, it starts out nice and shiny and smooth.
all of the store is that way.
a week later,,,, not so much.
you have spots that are worn down, and even the places that aren't walked on have dulled and gone hazy.
those edges are probably closer to what you have in a barrel you just need to touch them up to make them shine again.
which means dragging out a little wax and the buffer.
the more worn areas need some serious cleaning and then a couple of coats of wax and some serious buffing to return to their former glory.
in your rifle your maintaining a high buff shine when your shooting it.
but then you put it away for a while and then take it back to the range and shoot it again.
your first group looks like crap, then it settles down and does it's thing again.
you set the rifle to the side for a while and shoot some other guns for a bit then come back to it.
your first couple of shots are out of the group a bit and then things settle down again.
you'll see it right near the muzzle just by turning your back towards the sun, I have never tried to get it out [shrug]
it doesn't hurt anything and is probably helpful to have in there.
think about it like the zinc build up on the bearings in your cars engine, it's kind of a crackled micro-thin coating that holds lubricant.
core is consistency of residuals.
the trick is,, well, the consistency you want the 'stuff' in your barrel to remain as unaffected by temperature and time as possible.
think about a buffed floor in a store, it starts out nice and shiny and smooth.
all of the store is that way.
a week later,,,, not so much.
you have spots that are worn down, and even the places that aren't walked on have dulled and gone hazy.
those edges are probably closer to what you have in a barrel you just need to touch them up to make them shine again.
which means dragging out a little wax and the buffer.
the more worn areas need some serious cleaning and then a couple of coats of wax and some serious buffing to return to their former glory.
in your rifle your maintaining a high buff shine when your shooting it.
but then you put it away for a while and then take it back to the range and shoot it again.
your first group looks like crap, then it settles down and does it's thing again.
you set the rifle to the side for a while and shoot some other guns for a bit then come back to it.
your first couple of shots are out of the group a bit and then things settle down again.
358156 hp
At large, whereabouts unknown.
The oft repeated mantra of "hard cast" bullets misleads more people than other buzz phrase in the game. There is no true definition of how hard "hard cast" may be, so many simply buy or make the hardest bullets then can get. We now know that "hard" has no single meaning, the original intent seems to have meant simply "harder than pure lead". This result of course was achieved by blending alloys of various hardnesses (strength) by adding other elements, primarily tin (at first) in varying amounts to strengthen the lead as an alloy. Later, other elements were found to be useful as well, and things got really confusing pretty quickly. Add the higher pressures of magnum & "super" magnum calibers and you've really got your hands full trying to achieve any sort of balance.
Then of course add commercial bullet casters to the mix. Their goals are fundamentally different from anyone elses. The bullets are often really hard, primarily to mitigate the possibility of shipping damage. The same with their lubes. Just about everybody here knows the story, but since I'm in a philosophical mood this morning, I felt the need to type this out loud for the lurkers seeking answers. This is the source for another oft repeated mantra, the alloy must fit the application, and the bullet must fit the throats. We have good guidelines now, and much better information than ever before. Still, there are demons and gremlins lurking in the shadows, waiting to pounce on the unsuspecting.
Ian
Notorious member
BR shooters use linotype (when they do) for many reasons, not always because it's the best choice for the pressure or velocity in the gun barrel. Push lino fast and you'll see accuracy fall off very quickly, but it has a pretty broad range of useful applications....nearly as broad as good old wheel weights when you throw in the heat treatment factor to suit the caliber, pressure peak, and pressure curve of the load.
Alloy which is too soft for the "system" has a habit of riveting at some point before getting into the bore. Remember my alloy tests in the .30 XCB using the AM 31-190X bullet and neck-turned brass that netted a total chamber neck clearance of about .0008"? I cut the brass just shy of the end of the chamber, but when the alloy was too soft AND/OR powder was too fast for the system, the bullet metal flowed into the small gap and made perfect lead rings, I still have one somewhere that I picked out of the chamber. At a certain point, though, this stopped happening. It's a time/pressure thing. You shot some putty bullets through your .44 Magnum recently (the ones that slugged up so badly it took out all the lube grooves), and they still shot "ok" and only left you with some antimony wash in the bore. You had obturation in spades with that one!
Leading toward the muzzle end can be caused by a reverse-taper bore or again the "alloy/powder mis-match" I harp about all the time. Fiver calls it the relax point where pressure drops off enough that the bullet shrinks back and loses its seal in the bore. Bullets are pressurized internally like a balloon by pressure on the base, and if they have any antimony in them tend to be springy by nature and tend to shrink when pressure falls off. Also, if the bullet is too brittle, the lands will abrade metal on the leading edge and leave trailing-edge gaps (notice you see leading or heavy antimony wash on the trailing side much of the time in your rifles?) Sometimes the relaxing just dumps some lube out there, sometimes the bullet gets washed out and bona-fide "leading" occurs. People tend to blame lube formulation or lack of lube capacity of the bullet for this kind of leading, but I think that's only partially true at best. A good, high-powered grease-based lube can stop leaks and handle the bullet relaxing in some situations where a more traditional wax/oil lube cannot, but the source of the problem that sometimes a more robust lube can fix really is just an obturation problem. Slower-burning powder, buffer, or a slightly more malleable bullet can fix the problem too.
358156 hp
At large, whereabouts unknown.
Funny you should mention "riveting". One of the calibers I cast for is 357 SIG. It's a bottlenecked case of course, and I had to put some thought into it because of the long bullet/short neck condition. I finally decided that all bullets for this caliber will need to be hardened, either by waterdropping, or by oven heat-treating. In addition, most cast bullet designs don't have grease grooves in a handy place for this cartridge either. So the SIG bullets get powdercoated, then quenched straight from the oven. I extended the PC curing times, and went a bit hotter in the oven. It's working well so far. I only mention this because its related to adapting the alloy & procedures to the task at hand.
JWFilips
Well-Known Member
When I started shooting handguns with cast I was told I needed hard commercial cast....that was a cleaning nightmare.
Then I found you guys and you thought me about alloy quality & the nightmare ended!
Then I started shooting cast in rifles and I already had any problemsn't beat! Ok yes some antimony wash that if I wasn't so well schooled from you guys I would think was leading!
I know the difference now!
Going back to Brad's opening statement on this thread I recently purposefully leaded a 7 mm barrel badly to see how fast accuracy dropped off. I posted a thread about this experiment.
I was shocked at how fast things can go down hill!
This is an excellent thread here: We can all learn something
Jim
Then I found you guys and you thought me about alloy quality & the nightmare ended!
Then I started shooting cast in rifles and I already had any problemsn't beat! Ok yes some antimony wash that if I wasn't so well schooled from you guys I would think was leading!
I know the difference now!
Going back to Brad's opening statement on this thread I recently purposefully leaded a 7 mm barrel badly to see how fast accuracy dropped off. I posted a thread about this experiment.
I was shocked at how fast things can go down hill!
This is an excellent thread here: We can all learn something
Jim
358156 hp
At large, whereabouts unknown.
I have experienced a type of leading in semi-autos only that perplexes me, this seems like a good time to discuss it. This is the type of leading that leaves lead curls in the bore, seemingly coming off the rifling lands only. I've experienced this primarily with 9mm for some reason, but I don't recall ever seeing it in a revolver. I've also seen others post pics of this type of leading, also primarily with 9mms. I did clean the barrel afterwards, and it seemed to clean up really quickly in comparison to some of my other setbacks, or rather opportunities.
KeithB
Resident Half Fast Machinist
I'm convinced the depth of the rifling, the shape of the profile (cross section) of the rifling, and the method used to generate the rifling have some effect on leading, but I don't really have enough experience to make any generalizations or draw any conclusions.
USSR
Finger Lakes Region of NY
I tend to agree with you, KeithB. My recovered bullet fired from my Colt Gold Cup had a full load of lube still in the lube groove, while the bullets fired from my revolver had none.
Don
KeithB
Resident Half Fast Machinist
I would think that if the edges/corners of the rifling were jagged or serrated on a microscopic scale that might peel off some strips of lead. Might be a good reason to break in a gun with cheap jacketed bullet loads or do a little fire lapping just to knock off the burrs.
fiver
Well-Known Member
think about why the JES rebored rifles with 3 lands shoot so well.
when he cuts those he cuts them with tall lands and airc they are triangular shaped.
taller lands tend to grab the bullet better and not let go of it.
this is great for general 15-1900 fps shooting while maintaining accuracy.
switch the speed up into the 2400 fps zone and you quickly find out what those grooves down the side of the bullet does to it.
when he cuts those he cuts them with tall lands and airc they are triangular shaped.
taller lands tend to grab the bullet better and not let go of it.
this is great for general 15-1900 fps shooting while maintaining accuracy.
switch the speed up into the 2400 fps zone and you quickly find out what those grooves down the side of the bullet does to it.
Ian
Notorious member
About 50 dry-wrapped or wet-wrapped and unlubed paper-jacketed bullets will make a lot of barrels more agreeable with cast bullets. Copier paper has a lot of clay and anti-bleed agents which polish nicely if you don't lube them. You can tell the friction difference when shooting un-lubed paper just by how quickly the barrel heats up.