What Did You Shoot Today?

[Snakeoil]

Jacketed ammo is not allowed on the steel targets. But we leave some of the crappier targets up for sighting-in purposes on off-days and a few of them have been perforated.

I'm trying to determine a limiting factor we can enforce. I spoke about this here a few weeks ago. At first we thought velocity was the answer. Then we moved to muzzle energy since it increases as a square of the velocity so that covered both. But I just read an article that was specifically about target damage, and it said velocity is the key parameter because of the heat energy generated at the target. I'd never concidered the heat at the point of contact and that becomes the primary contributor to target damage. I need to do some more research before we make a decision.

The sad part is the primary offender is truly a nice guy. He just needs to win. We caught him cheating in the 22 match last week, but could not prove it. There are no prizes, so not worth the drama it would create. I'm thinking that we simply treat PC coated like jacketed. Banning PC from steel targets should drop the velocities. The member that does the weld repairs on the targets said he's run into PC being impregnated into the targets making them difficult to weld.

 

[Matt_G]

A friend running a rifle range had written rules regarding the use of the range's .22 targets. Somehow illiterate members managed to shoot up some of the .22 targets with .223 fmj and never confessed to the indiscretion.

You can't fix stupid.
Well, actually you can fix stupid.
The problem is, doing so is a Class A felony.

 

[popper]

Glaciers, get the free GRT program (QL ish).

 

[RBHarter]

223 is 22 cal

 

[Glaciers]

Glaciers, get the free GRT program (QL ish).

Ok. I’m really bad at guessing what acronyms actually mean. And you x-military, x-law enforcement guys always assume that everyone else automatically knows what you’re talking about. Or you just don’t want others in your club. Plus I have a case of sometimers disease which makes remembering a particular acronym that I ran across 6 or 8 months ago difficult.
So I apologize to the rest of you that have acronyms as a first language.
I only speak two languages, English and Bad English. I think I heard that in a movie once and it fits.
But Popper as I’m pretty sure QL is Quick Load I’m certainly would be interested in whatever GRT is.
Could you please use the long form and provide a link?

 

[JonB]

But Popper as I’m pretty sure QL is Quick Load I’m certainly would be interested in whatever GRT is.
Could you please use the long form and provide a link?

start [Gordons Reloading Tool Community]

www.grtools.de

 

[Rick]

Never heard of GRT, was also curious but didn't want to sound like a dummy so I waited for someone else to ask.

 

[462]

Thank you, Glaciers!

I'm not a very good wordsmith, but almost always attempt to not use acronyms.

 

[Glaciers]

Yeah I opened up the website and registered, then got thoroughly confused. Way too complex for this old guy. I like to keep it simple like on page 314 of the second edition of the xxxx.

 

[Glaciers]

Actually I was waiting for all the hate mail, and other forms of “man where have you been” comments. I’ve been in the woods for the last 50 years in case you were wondering.
I guess I just don’t need radical theory on building this or that cartridge, I can see where that would be useful for the Rocket Scientist types (Ian), but I’m a simple man and in case you missed it, easily confused.
So I have the basics, bullet weight, bore diameter, case volume, powder burn rate, well most on that one, with a fair amount of experience, although I’m certainly learning more about this hobby I’ve been participating in since the mid 60’s.
What I need to do is be more organized with my record keeping. I have about a dozen spiral notebooks some have only one cartridge in it and some have multiple cartridges listed. Some are on that shelf and one or two are under that stack of books over there. I’ve created my own confusion and I’m just frustrated with myself. I just need to be more anal.
What I need to do in the organization department is design a spreadsheet form that I can print out that will not only have cartridge reloading data but the casting data for a given bullet (bullets) for a given bullets used. Just a form, I’m not interested in entering data on a computer.

 

[popper]

Actually easy to use, just download/install. Choose (there is a magnifying glass symbol) caliber/ barrel length/bullet/ powder/ charge choices. One thing to watch is seating depth. Determine for yourself if possible. Will have an effect on pressure.
Sample saved load (compares powders)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gordons Reloading Tool 2021.2030-NIGHTLY
Parametric powder search by generic tolerance synthesis
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
File : vmaxcarbineh110.grtload
Caliber : .300 AAC Blackout (300 Whisper, 300 BLK, 7,62 x 35)
Projectile : Hornady, V-MAX 23010, 0.308, 110.00 grain, 0.9213 in
Seating depth : 0.1500 in
Case : 24.40 grain H2O, 1.3681 in
Cartridge length: 2.1394 in
Initial pressure: 3626 psi
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tolerance-Window : Target Min. Max. Unit
maximum pressure : 50600 47564 53636 psi
Muzzle velocity : 2434.4 2288.3 2580.5 ft/s
Barrel Time general (BT) : - - - ms
Bullet Lead Time 10% pmax (BLT): - - - ms
Load ratio : - - - %
burnt propellant : - - - %
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A T T E N T I O N - A T T E N T I O N - A T T E N T I O N
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Depending on the setting of the limiting tolerance windows, the charges can
exceed the specified maximum pressures, or have no meaningful, or even
a dangerous value. Please check a load prior to use for plausibility.

The order of the list depends on the composition of the powder list.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
propellant mass load ratio pmax v0 E0 burnt eff. BT BLT recoil
grain % psi ft/s ft-lb % % ms ms ft-lb
Hodgdon H110 (2020-04-20) 20.00 95.6 50589 2434.3 1447 98.2 37.7 0.9034 0.8924 7.72
Alliant 2400 (2020-08-01) 16.63 91.2 53642 2330.6 1327 99.5 44.2 0.9323 0.9042 6.52 Working pressure close to the maximum permissible gas pressure!
Accurate 1680 (2020-12-12) 22.33 99.0 53629 2374.6 1377 79.6 33.1 0.9008 0.8920 7.74 Working pressure close to the maximum permissible gas pressure!

 

[Glaciers]

Ok it looks to me like this will work better on my PC rather than my phone.
I’ll try that tonight
Thanks

 

[Michael]

I'm trying to determine a limiting factor we can enforce.

It is unfortunate that target damage is becoming a problem. Some of the solution options (that's a broad term) that I have seen else where have included one or more of the following.

1. Black Powder or BP substitute only.
2. No duplex loads.
3. No coated bullets.
4. No gas checked bullets.
5. Velocity limits.
6. Cast lead bullets only.
7. Do not leave older damaged targets out. Some shooters don't care or even understand that not all steel is the same, or feel a target is a target is a target.
8. If a member has issues with the proposals, bring him on being part of the discussion on limiting damage, costs and challenges to repair, and raising funds from to replace with strong enough steel to withstand the intentional or willfully negligent abuse.
9. Chronograph random loads from each competitor. Didn't IPSC do that to determine minor/major before a match.
10. Have a "target damage replacement fee" in addition to regular membership and range use fees for every shooter, member or not, that wants to shoot steel outside of a match. Targets are inspected before and after, holes and craters will require target to be replaced by the offender.
11. All of the steel targets locked up and are off limits outside of matches.
12. Nothing stopping anyone from purchasing their own steel.

Granted each of these options have their pros and cons, some are heavy handed, nor will keep everyone happy, unless someone want to pony the cash for "damage proof" targets if there is such thing.

Good luck, I do not envy your quandary.

 

[RicinYakima]

Our club ended up at #11 because the range is a county park and even with a Range Master, we could not stop the guys with AR's shooting up the pistol targets. Sad but has worked for us for over 20 years now.

The down side is that it takes a work party the evening before the match to set everything up after the range closes to the public.

 

[Snakeoil]

First, GRT is something I learned about here, looked into, downloaded and fell in love. It's very useful if you are looking for reduced loads using non-standard powders. It was created to be better than QL and be free. The downside is the creator died and the estate includes the tool and probate in Europe is complicated. Another downside is as a European based tool, many of the US powders are not in then database.

As far as the target damage issue goes, we'll sort it out. When you shoot targets at 500 yds, you only have to watch one round go downrange to know if it is hot or not.

 

[Snakeoil]

The guys that damaged your targets should get a little heartache from paying for repairing or replacing your targets!

We have discussed that. We have to first surmount the denial phase of the argument. We might already be there. But I suspect that we may not have conquered the admitting phase just yet.

 

[L Ross]

Sighting and testing guns and ammo for the Virginia Match. Shot the model 39 and lowered the slider in the rear sight all the way and have a useful sense of where to hold for 25 to 100 yards on Prairie Dogs.
After shooting both my .30-30 and the 1873 in .44 w.c.f. with black powder I have decided to leave the .30-30 home. Not that it does not shoot splendidly, but the 73 will do what ever I need a rifle for other than the long range buffalo shoot. I shot the .44 BP loads at 25 and 80 yards and was just tickled. The last thing I did was shoot three shots offhand at a 12" gong at 80 yards and put all three in a cluster no more than 4" across. As I said, tickled.

 

[Snakeoil]

Yesterday was the .22 siloutte match. Shot my 52C with 10X Unertl. Targets were 3 MOA discs, 50-200 yds and a 300 yd 2-shot offhand buffalo about 12 inches wide. Conditions were pretty good, but that did not mean that we did not have to do our part. I was clean out to the 200 yd target and managed to pull the trigger and miss one. I knew I did it as soon a I saw the dirt fly at 3:00. But every miss teaches you something, right?

I learned another thing yesterday. Never call your offhand shot until you are sure. I squeezed off the first shot and it broke a tad high. As I was calling the shot, the rest of the shooters all started cheering as the target dropped. I immediately got my balls busted and my only counter was I was just saying hello to everyone when I said, "High" after the shot broke.

We had two shooters shoot clean with scopes and one other iron sight shooter shoot clean on the bigger silhouette targets.

We have been talking about mixing up the .22 matches based upon a match they created for Labor Day. They shot a standard .22 match, but you could not convert sighters and 2 of the 10 shots had to be offhand at each yardage. I did not shoot in the Labor Day match but saw the results and those offhand shots separated the men from the boys. Lots of scores in the 20's. Guess I need to practice my offhand shooting.

 

[L Ross]

Just came in from shooting my C. Sharps .40 2 1/2". 63.5 grains KIK 2fg Saeco 410 grain bullet. Ended up dialed in for 200 yards. I had 4 rounds left in an ammo box and used them to down 4 buffalo off the rail.
Still riding the shooting high from the weekend.

 

[smokeywolf]

Not today, but yesterday plinked off a few rounds with the old Colt 38 DS with factory sights. Off hand and everything fuzzy because I was wearing the wrong glasses, but still managed 50% hits on 8" gong at a little under 30 yards.

156 grain SWC on top of 3 grains BE.

To be honest, I still would have finished with a big stupid grin on my face if I'd missed all of them.