RicinYakima
High Steppes of Eastern Washington
Yes, and tapered the first driving band 1.5* included angle and nose at .300". I don't use COL but seat to contact of first band to throat.
Where do I go from here? PC and no "workee"
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Ian
Notorious member
Pete, I don't have enough data to make a positive assertion, but comparing pc bare to pc lubed I saw definite cool-bore flyer trends with two different lubes and two different bullet designs. Lbt blue had low flyers and more fps and fwfl had high flyers w/lower fps.
Ric, I know fully that some of what I wrote is against what you have learned and against what many of your esteemed colleagues from the CBA have carved in granite.....but......do you wish to improve, or not?
Ric, I know fully that some of what I wrote is against what you have learned and against what many of your esteemed colleagues from the CBA have carved in granite.....but......do you wish to improve, or not?
RicinYakima
High Steppes of Eastern Washington
Alloy is 3.5% antimony and 2.2% tin. No crimp, one dry patch before the PC group.
The reason I am doing all of this is that I have left over PC bullets from an article I wrote three years ago. What I am looking for is what have the PC shooters learned in that time. Are there general principles that will help someone transition to PC bullets if they choose?
RicinYakima
High Steppes of Eastern Washington
Ric, I know fully that some of what I wrote is against what you have learned and against what many of your esteemed colleagues from the CBA have carved in granite.....but......do you wish to improve, or not? [/QUOTE]
What I am looking for is what have the PC shooters learned in that time. Are there general principles that will help someone transition to PC bullets if they choose?
You have to define "improve". Match shooting is only about precision, nothing else. I want to see if I can help those that want to try PC bullets for match shooting. An article about basic principles using new techniques to introduce benchrest shooters to PC coating.
[/QUOTE]What I am looking for is what have the PC shooters learned in that time. Are there general principles that will help someone transition to PC bullets if they choose?
You have to define "improve"
. Match shooting is only about precision, nothing else. I want to see if I can help those that want to try PC bullets for match shooting. An article about basic principles using new techniques to introduce benchrest shooters to PC coating.
Ian
Notorious member
Popper, you and Bama seem to be having pretty good luck with slicks, but he has fouling issues at hv that I haven't experienced when using lube, and don't usually experience wirh unlubed, grooved bullets. My operating understanding at this juncture is that "microband" bullets are the answer for PC applications. Reference bore fouling, Barnes solid bullets, and their invention of displacement grooves. Monolithic bullets benefit from displacement grooves because they localize deformation rather than having the bulk of the bullet body deform/draw out.
Ian
Notorious member
So you are going to write an article.
If it us only to be about match shooting, I think you may be missing most of the advantages of the coating. I myself am trying to answer some fundamental questions about powder-coated bullets, but it goes beyond "precision". Have you ever considered that pc could potentially enable precision at near full velocity potential for the cartridge and reduce the effects of wind drift? PC is not going to offer any fundamental accuracy improvement that I can tell over conventional techniques at 1400-1800 fps., so why don't you look at exploiting the velocity advantage?
If it us only to be about match shooting, I think you may be missing most of the advantages of the coating. I myself am trying to answer some fundamental questions about powder-coated bullets, but it goes beyond "precision". Have you ever considered that pc could potentially enable precision at near full velocity potential for the cartridge and reduce the effects of wind drift? PC is not going to offer any fundamental accuracy improvement that I can tell over conventional techniques at 1400-1800 fps., so why don't you look at exploiting the velocity advantage?
RicinYakima
High Steppes of Eastern Washington
My role is to be the cheerleader, not the researcher. At my age and ability, it is not practical for me to be doing that complex of project. The few shooters that are trying this are doing exactly what you suggest; small bore, higher velocity and reduce wind drift. They have not been successful, but they are not publishing what they are doing either.
I am following you on your project because I foresee that PC will make a great hunting bullet, and solve some of the problems with lubed lead bullets.
I am following you on your project because I foresee that PC will make a great hunting bullet, and solve some of the problems with lubed lead bullets.
What I am looking for is what have the PC shooters learned in that time. Are there general principles that will help someone transition to PC bullets if they choose?
OK, most of us started with the ESPC, found it really isn't mandatory. Evenly applied and properly cured just works. Examples I've given are HF red ESPC. Found out how to do tumble now and it works (moisture problems). Those were from LR308 1:10 carbine @ 2400+ fps. 24" 1:10 rifle upper gives 2700+ with same ammo. For plinking/pistol shooting, when properly applied, it always works. Application is a little more critical for HV rifle shooting. It still comes down to FIT and alloy. I use a hard alloy, NO tin, isocore or better adding some As/sulfur, H.T. but I changed to adding Cu/As H.T. With that hard alloy I can get 145gr PB to 2100 in BO.
This year I've been working for a softer alloy, 40sw, 30/30 and BO - modified 170gr PB RD style bullet. PB seems to be OK but lower fps. The 40 works fine - always has.
I will make a statement. I have NOT proved to myself that PC (coating) can beat jacketed accuracy! But it's a whole lot cheaper!
Anyway, my PC guidelines would be proper bullet, care in PCing, good neck tension, NO crimp, and NO scraping when seating. I will add that all the rifle moulds I use now have very small grooves just to collect moved lead; PB use a 0.02" GC shank to insure a good base. I don't jam the lands as everything but the 30/30 is semi.
I've done HiTek, for me it's just fussier to get coated.
OK, most of us started with the ESPC, found it really isn't mandatory. Evenly applied and properly cured just works. Examples I've given are HF red ESPC. Found out how to do tumble now and it works (moisture problems). Those were from LR308 1:10 carbine @ 2400+ fps. 24" 1:10 rifle upper gives 2700+ with same ammo. For plinking/pistol shooting, when properly applied, it always works. Application is a little more critical for HV rifle shooting. It still comes down to FIT and alloy. I use a hard alloy, NO tin, isocore or better adding some As/sulfur, H.T. but I changed to adding Cu/As H.T. With that hard alloy I can get 145gr PB to 2100 in BO.
This year I've been working for a softer alloy, 40sw, 30/30 and BO - modified 170gr PB RD style bullet. PB seems to be OK but lower fps. The 40 works fine - always has.
I will make a statement. I have NOT proved to myself that PC (coating) can beat jacketed accuracy! But it's a whole lot cheaper!
Anyway, my PC guidelines would be proper bullet, care in PCing, good neck tension, NO crimp, and NO scraping when seating. I will add that all the rifle moulds I use now have very small grooves just to collect moved lead; PB use a 0.02" GC shank to insure a good base. I don't jam the lands as everything but the 30/30 is semi.
I've done HiTek, for me it's just fussier to get coated.
Well, we all know if it's on the internet it's true, right? Groups often shrink in the writing...
Ian
Notorious member
The deal with this board is that we try to share enough information and answer questions so that you or anyone who is willing to follow instructions and put in the effort can duplicate on their own anything posted or claimed. I.e. we want to progress and share so others can progress as well.
What you won't see is "not invented here" complexes, wild claims with no reasonable explanation of how it was done, and no refusal to accept new ideas or facts without 10,000 pages of lab tests. There are people here who can really shoot and can do pretty amazing stuff with cast bullets and have proven it either in competition, in front of friends, by posting targets and loads over and over for years, or by being able to instruct others how to do it for themselves, and we're constantly learning from we each other.
Sorry I didn't ask the question correctly in your m1a thread. If whomever cast your bullets did WD from the mould but let them AC after coating, the coated will be softer. That group reminds me of soft coated bullet groups I get. Heat treated coated alloy MUST be cooked for one hour (min?) and then quenched in cold water.
RicinYakima
High Steppes of Eastern Washington
I cast the bullets, air cooled at about 40 degrees (the temperature of my shop in January), the guy that did the powder coating did not water drop them after baking.
RBHarter
West Central AR
As for groups ....... I've heard that some folks take a really good 3-5 shot group to show off a load while others shoot successive 10 shot groups over several days to establish a good load to show off .
I don't have anything to offer for the PC/HTC it took me 10 yr to break down and buy gas checks during which I learned to paper patch and cast for 17 different calibers .....
At best with maybe a 1/15 exception all I own are 2-2.5" rifles and those that aren't are pretty unlikely sleepers . I tried really hard to drive cast in to jacketed speeds and I've made it with several cartridges , oddly enough most of them are the ones that most folks struggle with to get to shoot well at all .
I don't have anything to offer for the PC/HTC it took me 10 yr to break down and buy gas checks during which I learned to paper patch and cast for 17 different calibers .....
At best with maybe a 1/15 exception all I own are 2-2.5" rifles and those that aren't are pretty unlikely sleepers . I tried really hard to drive cast in to jacketed speeds and I've made it with several cartridges , oddly enough most of them are the ones that most folks struggle with to get to shoot well at all .
Eutectic
Active Member
This test will "separate the men from the boys" in a cold start bullet lube test!!!!
Pete
fiver
Well-Known Member
a constant is always my goal.
yeah it done made that little group, but will it do it tomorrow?
no?
well then it didn't really do it.
I like to know what I'm going to get from one day to the next.
I have an 8 mauser that is a solid 1-1/2" rifle.
I hated it for the longest time because that was all I have ever got from it.
cast, jacketed, 140grs, 150grs, 170grs, 200 grs, 1500 fps, 2800 fps, hot, cold [shrug] 1-1/2's continuously.
and then I really thought about it a little more.
every shot from everything goes into a 1-1/2" area,,, cold shot, hot barrel whatever is that really so bad?
so what if I don't walk back from the board with a teeny tiny little 3 shot tear in the center of the target.
I can walk back with a big 50 or 100 round tear in the paper and have no extra holes anywhere around it.
for a hunting rifle with a heavy duplex 3x9 scope hung on the top I think I can live with that.
not all rifles are like that and not all bullets are the same either.
IMO the design of PC bullets are still lacking in their element.
much like the original all copper bullets needed a relief groove, and smokeless paper patched bullets do better with a grooved surface versus a slick side that the black powder rounds like.
I think that no one has really studied the entire coating thing through from top to bottom.
it's a bunch of amateurs tossing ideas around [maybe] and most of the knowledgeable cast shooters just don't see the need to change what they worked so hard to pin down.
it's really going to take a new generation of shooters and tinkerers to wring out the whole potential of powder coating.
yeah it done made that little group, but will it do it tomorrow?
no?
well then it didn't really do it.
I like to know what I'm going to get from one day to the next.
I have an 8 mauser that is a solid 1-1/2" rifle.
I hated it for the longest time because that was all I have ever got from it.
cast, jacketed, 140grs, 150grs, 170grs, 200 grs, 1500 fps, 2800 fps, hot, cold [shrug] 1-1/2's continuously.
and then I really thought about it a little more.
every shot from everything goes into a 1-1/2" area,,, cold shot, hot barrel whatever is that really so bad?
so what if I don't walk back from the board with a teeny tiny little 3 shot tear in the center of the target.
I can walk back with a big 50 or 100 round tear in the paper and have no extra holes anywhere around it.
for a hunting rifle with a heavy duplex 3x9 scope hung on the top I think I can live with that.
not all rifles are like that and not all bullets are the same either.
IMO the design of PC bullets are still lacking in their element.
much like the original all copper bullets needed a relief groove, and smokeless paper patched bullets do better with a grooved surface versus a slick side that the black powder rounds like.
I think that no one has really studied the entire coating thing through from top to bottom.
it's a bunch of amateurs tossing ideas around [maybe] and most of the knowledgeable cast shooters just don't see the need to change what they worked so hard to pin down.
it's really going to take a new generation of shooters and tinkerers to wring out the whole potential of powder coating.
RicinYakima
High Steppes of Eastern Washington
Yes, all poured from the same crucible as a matter of fact, just for that PC test, about 300 bullets. What I was glad to see was that there was an even dispersion, not just outliers from bad shooting or big flaws. That tells me there is some amiss in my loading, so that is why I posted here. This is the only site I go to that has PC shooters who I trust will give me the benefit of real shooting knowledge and not just monkey see, monkey do.
RicinYakima
High Steppes of Eastern Washington
Week Two: First target is with 5% more powder, 16.8 grains of A2400. I also reduced the drive in to about 0.001" or just enough to feel as I closed the bolt. Group size is reduced about 50%! I fired five foulers on a flat backer and added 1/2 point left windage.
RicinYakima
High Steppes of Eastern Washington
Week two target two: Same powder charge but seated 0.20" deeper. Amazing the difference in POI! The last three shots are the ones in the ten ring.
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RicinYakima
High Steppes of Eastern Washington
Ian, you are correct, it is a different ball game. This is my test bed rifle I an working with.
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