Why not .270Win?

Ian

Notorious member
No, he actually claimed to have discovered the RPM threshold until someone pointed out that many people from Franklin Mann to Harold Vaughn and many others had already observed this basic attribute of spin-stabilized bullets, then he corrected himself (and covertly edited dozens of posts on various boards to reflect that) and renamed it "RPMTH" or some bs. I can make the "RPMTH" appear and disappear by what I do at the loading bench, and I figure if I can make it disappear then there's no threshold after all.

Any time someone brings up "RPM" I cringe because to me it means that person is already thinking in terms of imaginary, arbitrary limitations fabricated by someone else on the internet who uses them as an excuse for their own lack of ability and imposes onto everyone else by force.
 

Rcmaveric

Active Member
I am reading DR. Mann's book now. Just started it. I just finnished reading "From Ingot to Target", "Cast bullets for Beginers and Experts" (the older PDF version), and the NRA "Cast Bullets supliment".
 

Ian

Notorious member
Take everything Joe Brennan writes (or borrows from others on these BB's) with a grain of salt too. Mann, Pope, Vaughn, Litz, Fryxell, and to a certain extent Harrison can pretty much be relied upon to present facts as they found them without a "spin".
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
are you guys just trying to make my left eye start twitching?

the problem is people read all of the written stuff and start taking things as gospel because it was written down.
it sounds good because the facts are presented in a way that leads you down a trail to that same conclusion.
I know I have learned enough about lube, alloy, fitment, powder burn rates, and a few other things to make anyone of them sound like it is your problem or like it is your cure.
the only thing wrong with that is assumption is made that you got all the other parts of the puzzle right and that one thing is your only issue left to cause the problem.
 
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Pistolero

Well-Known Member
Aw, c'mon, Ian, Every Body Knows..... :rofl:

Actually, no, they really don't. Lots still to be learned and sometimes the metal bits just WON'T do what the theory says
they have to do. Darnit, all. Another theory blown all to hell.:)

Actually, that would be a hypothesis blown to hell.

Bill
 

Ian

Notorious member
The point being don't let anyone tell you that you "can't". Maybe they can't. Maybe you can't, but you never know until you work at it. I can, lots of others can, so there's that. Can't never could do anything.
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
well I Can't pole vault, but then again I never really tried.
by now they might have poles that will flex and still launch my fat butt over a bar 9-10-20' in the air, and I'm sure I could have a custom ultra heavy duty bar made.
or I could just lose some weight and practice with a stick over the creek.
but that wouldn't really be pole vaulting? more like creek crossing.
whatever,,, I'm not pole vaulting nuthin until someone tells me what it was originally used for.
[stormin the castle is my guess]
 

Bret4207

At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
Take everything Joe Brennan writes (or borrows from others on these BB's) with a grain of salt too. Mann, Pope, Vaughn, Litz, Fryxell, and to a certain extent Harrison can pretty much be relied upon to present facts as they found them without a "spin".

I will second, third and fourth Ians statement regarding Joe, 'Mr Data Miner' Brennan. Rather than go into a lengthy diatribe filled with venom and foul language, lets just say that what he says ain't always so.
 

Rcmaveric

Active Member
I think of all these informational pieces more of tools and not so so much as gospel. Theory, practice and actuality are often different. Nothing is impossible only improbable.

I think my inaccuracies are just a alloy failures leading to bullet slump. So when i mentioned a slower twist, it was to see if it decreases the strain on the alloy and allow high velocities.

There are still many things I havent tried. I am curious about heavier bullets and slower powders with better alloys. NOE has a Pope style .278 bullet and RCBS has their SIL style about the only real options. Sadly no hunting bullet designs.

I really want to try a heavy bullet around 150g. A slower powder and with a better alloy. I have some hypothesis i would like to test.

I wonder if paper patching leads to increased barrel dwell time?
 

RBHarter

West Central AR
Paper patch reduces dwell time but tends to align and fill the throat with less bullet alteration from the case to the barrel . The general consensus is that paper patch is slicker and moves easier and faster that lead and copper . Stepping down to a 6.5 bullet for 270 isn't too bad for weight options but others are difficult sometimes without custom moulds and sizers . 270 to 7mm because of the dearth of 270 moulds and 30 cal because there's not a 29 cal ......the Russians and Britt's however are readily available as there are 800 choices in 308-310 to shoot in the 310-316 grooves . I've been background dabbling with a 25 cal patch and even a 105 gr bullet is rare in 243 .

As a personal note the fat 6.5 , 270-140 NOE I think , won't go with a double wrap in a tight low mileage 270 × 784 barrel . The bare nose is too loose possibly with a coat of BLL it would be fine but then you have the potential of the patch sticking to the bullet . The really fat 31s can patch up to tight 32s .
Nothing really for 33/34 & 35 cal either , the 9.3 of course has a hoard of 35 cal bullets that will work . 375 ...... 9.3 moulds but not in my research windows for size and weight . 40s you're looking at old school and probably there are a number of BP moulds available in .401-.403 for the .408-410 rifles . 44s again not much past undersized pistol bullets for fat rifles . 45s are like a party but the Sharps etc that won't die and Quigley resurrection of the 45-70,90,100,110,120 probably has a lot to do with that .
22&24 are all on you for sizers .

My 1¢ on revs . It's a thing , you can work around it , the side effect of centrifugal force is just a killer on cast and if pushed far enough in a 30 will do it too . I do have a 1-8.5 06' that was probably a 1 off special order for super heavyweights when 250s were still available on the shelf . At 2750 dime 5 shot groups at 2690 are sideways and moving on up the results get worse . In the 1-12 308 2800 is still under a dollar for 10 shots , same profile , length , dia , very close throats ... It is in 308 and that rifle regardless of propaganda will not shoot a bullet over 175 gr , not even a 180 RN that's shorter than the 150 . Yeah yeah every rifle it's own rules ....... The only to absolutely prove or deny the rev thing would be to use a single rifling tool on a series of holes in a solid block of steel all cut with one drill and reamer set at different twists from 14-8 in 30 Cal . Even then on 1000 rounds per hole on single lot GI ammo all we'd have is a mountain of data and video it would take years to sort out and come to a conclusion .

Want something newish to fuss about ?
What happens to a cast bullet related to air density , in the first 20 ft out of the muzzle ? If the bullet is superSonic upon exit then the air mass immediately in front of it has to be either highly compressed or traveling supersonic also . I've seen an aircraft break up in a wind shear so what happens when the bullet exits the supersonic pushed air plume and hits the "clean" air ?
 

Pistolero

Well-Known Member
High speed Schlieren motion pictures of bullets exiting the muzzle show the air in the barrel ahead of the bullet being
violently ejected, as a turbulent jet, then the bullet with a lot of added turbulent gases, appears and within a few inches
to maybe a foot, the bullet breaks out of the mass of turbulent air, gasses and such into clean, stationary air, streaming the
shock waves which are created by it's supersonic passage.

Basically the first few inches to a foot, the bullet is pushing through a chaotic, turbulent mess....apparently, enough randomness to not
materially affect the bullet direction constistently in one way or the other. Evacuating the bore with a thin, frangible muzzle cap might
slightly improve the compressed air ahead of the bullet....but pretty impractical beyond an experimental situation.
The turbulent mess at the muzzle is probably harming accuracy a bit, but seems pretty much impossible/impractical to avoid.

Bill
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
unfortunately it doesn't just happen on the bullets nose.
it also happens on the front drive band and on any other surfaces that protrude past the main diameter behind it.
 

Pistolero

Well-Known Member
Yep, note that I said "shock waves", plural. There are multiple shocks coming off most bullets in the photos.
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
I think you were posting while I was slowly typing with one hand and fending off Jax who wanted to type with the other.

this is just an opinion cause I ain't got a shadowgraph or high speed camera.
but part of a cast bullets failure and success comes from it's shape and the air buffeting it has to face.
much of what happens of course is set up through internal ballistics and influences that big ol' bang at the muzzle but ultimately the bullet has to face the world on it's own.
taking out the riffles and wobbles through shape and rounded edges is a big help in doing that.
 

Ian

Notorious member
Pretty sure Harold Vaughn dispelled the myths of grease grooves (as in Barnes displacement grooves) and rifling engraves affecting drag.

"Centrifugal" force acting on bullet defects is a thing, doesn't matter what the bullet is made of. I out that in quotes because anyone who has taken a non-relativistic physics course knows that centrifugal force is technically called a "fictitious" force. If you make your system so the bullet comes out balanced, there is no redline on rotational velocity.

The paper jacket cushions the initial squeeze through the throat and adds tremendous compressive strength to the land engraves. The second part is where the real HV benefit comes from and where heat and lead alloy alloy fails us.
 

Pistolero

Well-Known Member
Crossed our thoughts in the plasma stream, eh, fiver. That's cool. :)

"...there is no redline on rotational velocity. ", well until the centrifugal forces pull the bullet apart. :)

I remember clearly the first (only) time this happened to me. No bullet hit on the third shot with a .22-250.
Looked hard for the hole. Fired again....and my range buddy said, "Hey, there was a puff of blueish smoke
about halfway down, that time." And no hole, again. So I lined up fairly close, on the bags, lifted my head
and pulled the trigger......blueish puff of smoke half way down, and still no hole in the target.
Packed up my gear, headed home and pulled the rest of those rounds down. :( Not an appropriate
bullet design for hot loads in a .22-250.

Not sure if it happens to cast, but I know it definitely happens to jbullets driven too fast with thin
jackets.

Bill
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
I know grey smoke at the muzzle is a kiss of death to accuracy.
that's blow by and probably vaporized lead from severe gas cutting but once you see it your done.
your probably done anyway since the recoil is obnoxious at that point too.