WSF in 44 Special or 38 Special

[Bazoo]

I have a pound of WSF and I want to use it in the above mentioned cartridges. I have used it in 45 acp previoulsy. I have been doing some research on its personality. It likes higher pressure than these cartridges work at normally, and heavy bullets, and not much airspace it seems. It would likely be right at home with +P loadings of either cartridge. Problem is there is no data available. For 38 special, I'd likely use the Lee C358-158-SWC and for 44 special the CTL432-265-RF ranchdog. I don't suppose anyone could offer me some advice on working up loads?

 

[fiver]

it's like Herco and BE-86.
i've used both of those in the magnum cases with very good results,, but not in the short versions, so i got no experience.
i do think your instincts about the 'mid to upper end' 15+K being where it'll be it's happiest is spot on though.

 

[Petrol & Powder]

WSF is my go-to powder for 9mm but I've not had good luck with it in 38 Special.
My Speer manual has a little data for 140 grain bullets and WSF. I did have some data from another source for 158 gr. but I can't find right now. In any event, I wasn't happy with WSF in 38 Special. I agree, I think it likes less case volume.

 

[Bazoo]

Thanks P&P.

I am interested too if anyone uses WSF in mid range 357 and 44 magnum loads. The area where herco is normally used.

 

[popper]

And 40sw, 165gr.

 

[Bazoo]

I don't load for any automatic pistol cartridges now. I have a passing interest in them, but whenever I start looking at new to me guns, I pass by the auto counter and go right for the revolvers. I don't know anyone else that loads and could use it, so not much chance to swap either. Especially since its opened. I used a pound and then opened this right before I sold off the 45 auto.

 

[fiver]

no shotguns huh?
20 ga would be suspect, and 28,,, especially since that powder they call 20-28 is just a click faster than wsf.

 

[Bazoo]

Yeah, I don't load shotgun yet. I am planning to, and I was gearing up for when things got scarce. I have a loader and that's about it.

 

[MikeN]

I use it to load 10mm auto. It is supposed to be ideal in 20-28ga. The comment about it liking more pressure to burn right is what I've found.

 

[CZ93X62]

Fiver has more shotgun experience by accident than I've had on purpose, so I would lean upon his knowledge heavily.

I have no experience with the Winchester shotshell powders. I have lived with the Hercules/Alliant shotshell fuels since age 15, though. A whole lot of autopistol and revolver bullets had been sent downrange using shotgun powders by me over the years. If WSF corresponds roughly to Herco, that is a very useful powder indeed. It seems odd that a shotshell propellant would 'Come into its own' at higher pressures, but a shotshell is a far different internal ballistic environment than a brass case is. Caveat emptor, semper!

 

[fiver]

well the smaller shells have a bit higher MAP than the 12ga does.
they also have to push against 3-400grs of payload,,, that makes a big difference.

 

[RBHarter]

Zero air space, many modern low base cases functionally ignite top down . Tests were done with 06' and flash tubes like the artillery shells and delivered some pressure reduction but mostly velocity increases. But that was 1939 so grain of salt and all .

If you look at the bases in the Fiocchi low base cases the bottom of the ignition chamber is well below the nose of the prime and those case produce higher velocities with steel shot and lower pressures by almost 3000 psi and 150 fps over Win AA or Drilock white base and FC with 1 wad , Primer , and 4756 . Even Steel and Blue Dot burned clean at 10kpsi . The Dots and Unique don't clean up until right in the top of shotgun loads and 15 kpsi in everything else .

I've never worked the Win powders .....been a Hercules and IMR guy mostly .

 

[Petrol & Powder]

Back when I was shooting shotgun a lot, I set up a MEC loader in 20 Ga. for a trap load. It is still set for that load. I went through pounds of WSF.
For the components I had or could get easily, that worked perfectly. I never saw a need to change and was very happy with the setup.
Then I found data for WSF in 9mm and found the combination that worked for me. I was thrilled with that loading and locked down everything on the Dillon 550 for that load. It wasn't max velocity, but it shoots well and cycles reliability.
I was starting to get a little cocky and thought maybe I had found a universal powder. I tried WSF in 38 Special and was disappointed. I couldn't get it to shoot even close to the level of my WW-231 or Bullseye loads.
Purely speculation on my part, but I don't think WSF likes air space.

 

[Bazoo]

I am thinking it would be a good powder for a deep seating bullet, in 44 those would the the Lee Ranchdog 432-265-RF and in 38, the lee C358-158-SWC.

 

[Bazoo]

I will be working with a 44 magnum rifle sometime soon and I'll be looking to work up a load using WSF in that eventually. I'll probably get a chronograph before I start messing with WSF in any of these applications.

 

[358156 hp]

I've used WSF for many years, it seems to be best suited for use in smaller capacity cases, I really like it in 9mm with heavier weight bullets. In reverse, it was the coolest powder ever for 40 S&W with 135 gr Noslers. Damn....

 

[JonB]

So I was upstairs looking for something else, and found a pound of WSF, I don't recall ever buying it? Must have been in a box of stuff that I bought for an other reason? There is some good info in this thread.
=========
But, it got me thinking, maybe I make some Heavy bullet 45 acp ammo for revolver?
A quick google search found this comment in a 10 yr old thread from the 1911forum.

"In 45 ACP, I use WSF for my bowling pin loads. It's a slower burning pistol powder that works well in some applications. My load is the 255 SWC with 5.8 of WSF. My target loads are with WST because you get more loads per pound of powder."

WSF powder for .45 acp

Anyone using it?

www.1911forum.com

I'm mostly posting this here, so I'll find it quickly in a future search

 

[fiver]

the lyman pistol and revolver handbook showed some wst-wsf loads in it too.
i don't remember what cartridges though, i just seen it as i was skimming through last night.

 

[CZ93X62]

well the smaller shells have a bit higher MAP than the 12ga does.
they also have to push against 3-400grs of payload,,, that makes a big difference.

What occurs to me is that shell length stays roughly the same, but diameter shrinks from 16 gauge to 410. Longer relative shot column length is the result--if I'm processing what I see correctly. Fast powders (E.g., Red Dot) work for 1-1/8 oz. trap loads in 12 gauge, which are relatively short shot columns. The other extreme is 3" 410 shells, which call for 2400 powder and run at 35% higher typical pressures.

 

[fiver]

you can think about it like that.
or translate it's payload shape into balls of lead, 1 for a 12 ga.,,,, 3-4 for a 410. for the given length.

or translate the powder into metallic cartridges by bore size.
the 45-70 pretty much maxes out at 4895 as far as efficiency goes, the 223 goes a little further.
it's just how fast a powder makes gas and fills the given volume available to it.
i guess you could try using 4-5grs. of red-dot in the 410 to stay within it's pressure limits, but a 300 fps load probably isn't very useful.