Primers
- Thread starter Ben
- Start date
I know nothing about them, but they aren't jumping into the fray to save us from high prices - they're doing it to take advantage of high prices.
A new bar has been set at roughly ten cents per unit, typically sold in hundreds and thousands to even the smallest (us) customers. They may make a difference in terms of availability, but likely not in terms of what it costs us. If the competition they bring starts to drive prices down, I can't see these guys staying in the race. They'll stop or slow down to moderate any downward price change.
When gas hit $4/gal several years ago, there were trucks strewn up and down every road looking for oil and gas below. The minute gas prices went back down, that activity dried up - POOF! Overnight. $4/gal drew them in and at $3/gal they walked away.
Pessimistic perspective I know, but that's from our end. From theirs, the view is very different.
I know, I know, "supply and demand," or "demand and supply," however you want to put it, like it explains everything. There are natural and artificial gluts and shortages - ones which happen based on unforeseen circumstances and those which are contrived or manipulated. I honestly believe the prices today are artificially high - a result of manipulation. Can't prove it - don't have the time, and it wouldn't make any difference anyway.
HOWEVER, I will remain optimistic that there is some hope of a successful effort to establish US control over at least a fraction of such a dear and precious commodity and applaud their efforts.
A new bar has been set at roughly ten cents per unit, typically sold in hundreds and thousands to even the smallest (us) customers. They may make a difference in terms of availability, but likely not in terms of what it costs us. If the competition they bring starts to drive prices down, I can't see these guys staying in the race. They'll stop or slow down to moderate any downward price change.
When gas hit $4/gal several years ago, there were trucks strewn up and down every road looking for oil and gas below. The minute gas prices went back down, that activity dried up - POOF! Overnight. $4/gal drew them in and at $3/gal they walked away.
Pessimistic perspective I know, but that's from our end. From theirs, the view is very different.
I know, I know, "supply and demand," or "demand and supply," however you want to put it, like it explains everything. There are natural and artificial gluts and shortages - ones which happen based on unforeseen circumstances and those which are contrived or manipulated. I honestly believe the prices today are artificially high - a result of manipulation. Can't prove it - don't have the time, and it wouldn't make any difference anyway.
HOWEVER, I will remain optimistic that there is some hope of a successful effort to establish US control over at least a fraction of such a dear and precious commodity and applaud their efforts.
oscarflytyer
Well-Known Member
Dang Ben - on 2 accounts! 1) you were in my back yard and had no idea/would'a enjoyed meeting for lunch. and 2) had no clue Larrys had primers. Guess I need to swing by tomo!
Petrol & Powder
Well-Known Member
Jeff H, I understand your view but respectfully dissagree.
You words in red and my replies in black:
"……. they aren't jumping into the fray to save us from high prices - they're doing it to take advantage of high prices...."
One doesn’t exactly “jump into that fray”, it requires an enormous capital investment; but yes – they will certainly take advantage of high profits if they can.
"……If the competition they bring starts to drive prices down, I can't see these guys staying in the race. They'll stop or slow down to moderate any downward price change....."
They [The new manufacturer] have NO CHOICE but to stay in the race once they commit that money. When the going price drops, they (the new company) will not throttle back production. Quite the contrary, they will produce primers as fast as they can while they can still take advantage of the higher profit margins. They cannot afford to miss the opportunity that the market provides. They (the new company) will be forced to strike while the iron is hot and maximize their profits while they can. They have an obligation to their investors to do so.
"...Pessimistic perspective I know, but that's from our end. From theirs, the view is very different...."
Nope, their obligations are the same as ours. They need to financially survive and they cannot do that by spending millions of dollars and then missing the opportunity to recoup that investment.
".......I honestly believe the prices today are artificially high - a result of manipulation...."
If by artificially high, you mean fueled by enormous consumer demand – then you’re right. If you're suggesting there’s some type of grand collusion or conspiracy, that’s different. Not only is that conspiracy impossible given the market, but there’s also evidence to the contrary right in this thread – Norma is selling primers for $50/K, $20 per thousand lower than the OP listed. That’s not collusion – that’s a competitor undercutting his rival and taking market share away from their rivals.
Back in the 1970’s OPEC looked united and invincible – and even with their strangle hold on middle east and Venezuelan oil – that unity fell apart in the face of competition. It’s just not possible to gain that type market control. DeBeers tried it, Apple tried it, Henry Ford tried it, Edison tried it, The Hunt brothers tried it…..in the end – THE FREE MARKET WILL PREVAIL.
Sellers set asking prices. Buyers set actual prices.
Primers will sell for $70/thousand as long as there are people lined up willing to pay $70/1000.
They sold for $100/K when there were buyers at that price.
Norma is selling SP primers for $20 less than their competitors. That’s not collusion, that’s competition.
Never underestime the power of the consumer.
You words in red and my replies in black:
"……. they aren't jumping into the fray to save us from high prices - they're doing it to take advantage of high prices...."
One doesn’t exactly “jump into that fray”, it requires an enormous capital investment; but yes – they will certainly take advantage of high profits if they can.
"……If the competition they bring starts to drive prices down, I can't see these guys staying in the race. They'll stop or slow down to moderate any downward price change....."
They [The new manufacturer] have NO CHOICE but to stay in the race once they commit that money. When the going price drops, they (the new company) will not throttle back production. Quite the contrary, they will produce primers as fast as they can while they can still take advantage of the higher profit margins. They cannot afford to miss the opportunity that the market provides. They (the new company) will be forced to strike while the iron is hot and maximize their profits while they can. They have an obligation to their investors to do so.
"...Pessimistic perspective I know, but that's from our end. From theirs, the view is very different...."
Nope, their obligations are the same as ours. They need to financially survive and they cannot do that by spending millions of dollars and then missing the opportunity to recoup that investment.
".......I honestly believe the prices today are artificially high - a result of manipulation...."
If by artificially high, you mean fueled by enormous consumer demand – then you’re right. If you're suggesting there’s some type of grand collusion or conspiracy, that’s different. Not only is that conspiracy impossible given the market, but there’s also evidence to the contrary right in this thread – Norma is selling primers for $50/K, $20 per thousand lower than the OP listed. That’s not collusion – that’s a competitor undercutting his rival and taking market share away from their rivals.
Back in the 1970’s OPEC looked united and invincible – and even with their strangle hold on middle east and Venezuelan oil – that unity fell apart in the face of competition. It’s just not possible to gain that type market control. DeBeers tried it, Apple tried it, Henry Ford tried it, Edison tried it, The Hunt brothers tried it…..in the end – THE FREE MARKET WILL PREVAIL.
Sellers set asking prices. Buyers set actual prices.
Primers will sell for $70/thousand as long as there are people lined up willing to pay $70/1000.
They sold for $100/K when there were buyers at that price.
Norma is selling SP primers for $20 less than their competitors. That’s not collusion, that’s competition.
Never underestime the power of the consumer.
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I get that. I did say they they're NOT "jumping into the fray."
I also said NOT to "save us..." I could have worded that better - maybe used two nots.
Maybe, "they're not charging in on white horses to save us," wherein "charging in on white horses is more obviously part of what they're not doing. Now, I'm not being facetious here - I'm acknowledging that I could have been more clear.
I don't see much that you said that I even moderately disagree with. If one dissects a sentence and analyzes a piece out of context of the sentence, of course it looks different.
Honestly, I think we're on the same page. I do know many folks (not here so much) who still harbor delusions that someone in industry is "looking out for us," or should. but we're at the mercy of the market. It may have really been that way for years, or maybe it all worked out to just look that way to consumers in our market, but it's really all about the buck - and that's NOT intended to be a criticism, rather a reminder.
I appreciate the time you took to consider and comment. I sort of expected it when I hit "send."
L Ross
Well-Known Member
October of 2019, Olin had a REBATE on primers. Why in the bloody hell did they offer a rebate? Because they had primers that were not selling and they wanted to get rid of them.
Everything is cyclical in my opinion, even with tampering I will agree with P&P, the free market will prevail. Stocking up when the time is right is a viable strategy. Only you can decide when that time is right for you. Are $35/brick Ginex SPP enough of an incentive to stock up? I guess it all depends on your situation. Midsouth says free shipping and $350/case but Haz Mat still applies.
Personally I had to look in my trash folder to confirm those details.
Everything is cyclical in my opinion, even with tampering I will agree with P&P, the free market will prevail. Stocking up when the time is right is a viable strategy. Only you can decide when that time is right for you. Are $35/brick Ginex SPP enough of an incentive to stock up? I guess it all depends on your situation. Midsouth says free shipping and $350/case but Haz Mat still applies.
Personally I had to look in my trash folder to confirm those details.
fiver
Well-Known Member
they have been for a while, unfortunately they were on par with a third world product and had to pull back and do better.
Cadillac Jeff
Well-Known Member
I placed an order at Norma yesterday.
I will post here just to let you guys know
I will post here just to let you guys know
Tomme boy
Well-Known Member
I have ordered a couple of times from Norma. No worries. They ship fast. If they keep this price or lower I will still order more. Like I said, only one gun has problems with them so I don't use them for that gun. If you are using them in a striker fired gun you may have to change out the striker spring if it is overdue and weak. Once people did this they have not had any problems with the striker fired guns. My Ruger is just an odity that it will not work. Can't change the hammer spring on it as there is nothing to change it with available.
Rally
NC Minnesota
I’d not heard about the QC issues, thanks for the heads up.
What I’m thinking, judging from what I read and hear, it appears there are some scalpers getting worried about what they are holding.
L Ross
Well-Known Member
Call me all math confused. I looked back upstream and the post said Norma was $49.95 per brick so 10 bricks 500 bucks? Midsouth $349.95 per case. Ain't that 150 dollars a case cheaper?
waco
Springfield, Oregon
Are you sure Midsouth doesn’t consider 5 bricks a case?
L Ross
Well-Known Member
Ad says 5,000 count case, so....... Just passin' it along, I don't need any. My stuff was in Ian's boat.
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462
California's Central Coast Amid The Insanity
I checked Midsouth web-site: 5000 at $349.99 equals $70 per thousand.
I don't do conspiracies, but just saying: Isn't it worth considering the consequences of one company controlling the production, pricing, and distribution of CCI, Federal, and Remington primers? Same-same Hodgdon and the five powders it has control over.
I don't do conspiracies, but just saying: Isn't it worth considering the consequences of one company controlling the production, pricing, and distribution of CCI, Federal, and Remington primers? Same-same Hodgdon and the five powders it has control over.