.32-40 High Wall - A new adventure begins
- Thread starter Snakeoil
- Start date
Snakeoil
Well-Known Member
Today was our VT match. Round gongs set at 100, 150, 200 yds and pigs for iron sights at 300 yds. Shot the same Lee 324-175 with the GC removed. Drops out of the mold at 0.326. This is the same bullet used for the targets shot above. Used 13.5 gr of 2400 which has shot the best group so far. Friend brought a Hadley eye cup for me to use which made the front aperture much sharper.
Light was steady with an overcast sky. Temps around 25F. Winds were as usual, all over the place. But we did have long periods of calm (long being 1 to 2 minutes) that let you take your time, hoping for the wind to cease or reduce before breaking the shot.
My partner and I started at 150 yds. 10 inch (tad over 6 MOA) targets. Drilled it with the first sighter. Zeroed it in with subsequent sighters, converted those for score and just kept shooting. Wind was taking me a bit right at times and holding left was a challenge with the irons. I did not hold quite enough to the left and just missed the target at 3:00. If I had taken a second to look at the target with my spotting scope instead of relying purely on my spotter, I think I would have given it a click left and never missed that shot. There are 9 shots on the target below.
At 200, I took my time and drilled it 10 times, taking my first 2 sighters as converted for score. Still favored the right a bit. When I was spotting I noticed that the 9-3 wind seemed to be stronger than the 3-9 wind, even though the flags appeared to indicate the same, just opposite. Might be time to spring for a better wind indicator. Here is the 200 target. 10 rounds on this one. This is a 12 inch target.
The pig was another situation where if I had taken the time to take a look thru my scope, it would have gone better. My spotter was using the wrong pig (facing the wrong way) to show my hits. So, he's pointing to the right when the shot is hitting on the left. He's 86 so he gets a pass. I probably would have made a correction had I taken that simple look. So, it's my fault. Oh well. Got 8 at 300.
100 yds was shot clean. Wind was not much of a factor at 100. But the target being only 6 inches in diameter got harder and harder to see as I blew the paint off. The gray from the hits and the sand berm did not have enough contrast making a solid sight picture tough for the last 5 shots. But, I took my time and got'em all on the steel. I had half a bullet on the target with one shot and that made me slow down and be sure I saw the entire target in the sights. Paid off.
So, a 37/40 with irons on a windy day is not too shabby for the first time using the gun in a match. I'm much happier now than I was a couple weeks ago when I tried to shoot .321 size bullets only to have them keyhole at 100 yds. Another nice moment was at 100, 150 and 200, I hit the target with the first sighter. I was using the settings I had gotten on last Wed. Just a little more evidence that this rifle is a shooter.
Did miss the meerkat offhand shots at 400 yds. But not by much. Got several "Oooooooooohs" from the peanut gallery for each shot. We always make a big deal over having the best miss of the day.
My buddy Craig is going to bring some sized SAECO 632 bullets to the range on Wed. These is the 165 gr bullet that is pretty much the holy grail of .32-40 PB bullets. He casts 30:1 or softer so we'll see if they bump up enough to shoot well in my bore. Going to breech seat them. Craig has all his rifles shooting well. So, he's testing vicariously thru me now. I think he's enjoying the adventure as much as I am.
Light was steady with an overcast sky. Temps around 25F. Winds were as usual, all over the place. But we did have long periods of calm (long being 1 to 2 minutes) that let you take your time, hoping for the wind to cease or reduce before breaking the shot.
My partner and I started at 150 yds. 10 inch (tad over 6 MOA) targets. Drilled it with the first sighter. Zeroed it in with subsequent sighters, converted those for score and just kept shooting. Wind was taking me a bit right at times and holding left was a challenge with the irons. I did not hold quite enough to the left and just missed the target at 3:00. If I had taken a second to look at the target with my spotting scope instead of relying purely on my spotter, I think I would have given it a click left and never missed that shot. There are 9 shots on the target below.
At 200, I took my time and drilled it 10 times, taking my first 2 sighters as converted for score. Still favored the right a bit. When I was spotting I noticed that the 9-3 wind seemed to be stronger than the 3-9 wind, even though the flags appeared to indicate the same, just opposite. Might be time to spring for a better wind indicator. Here is the 200 target. 10 rounds on this one. This is a 12 inch target.
The pig was another situation where if I had taken the time to take a look thru my scope, it would have gone better. My spotter was using the wrong pig (facing the wrong way) to show my hits. So, he's pointing to the right when the shot is hitting on the left. He's 86 so he gets a pass. I probably would have made a correction had I taken that simple look. So, it's my fault. Oh well. Got 8 at 300.
100 yds was shot clean. Wind was not much of a factor at 100. But the target being only 6 inches in diameter got harder and harder to see as I blew the paint off. The gray from the hits and the sand berm did not have enough contrast making a solid sight picture tough for the last 5 shots. But, I took my time and got'em all on the steel. I had half a bullet on the target with one shot and that made me slow down and be sure I saw the entire target in the sights. Paid off.
So, a 37/40 with irons on a windy day is not too shabby for the first time using the gun in a match. I'm much happier now than I was a couple weeks ago when I tried to shoot .321 size bullets only to have them keyhole at 100 yds. Another nice moment was at 100, 150 and 200, I hit the target with the first sighter. I was using the settings I had gotten on last Wed. Just a little more evidence that this rifle is a shooter.
Did miss the meerkat offhand shots at 400 yds. But not by much. Got several "Oooooooooohs" from the peanut gallery for each shot. We always make a big deal over having the best miss of the day.
My buddy Craig is going to bring some sized SAECO 632 bullets to the range on Wed. These is the 165 gr bullet that is pretty much the holy grail of .32-40 PB bullets. He casts 30:1 or softer so we'll see if they bump up enough to shoot well in my bore. Going to breech seat them. Craig has all his rifles shooting well. So, he's testing vicariously thru me now. I think he's enjoying the adventure as much as I am.
Snakeoil
Well-Known Member
Back to the range today with another batch of test loads. Only loaded 5 of each this time.
I had made it to 13.5 gr of 2400 at the last test session. That load shot so well that I used it in the match on Sunday and won me the iron sight class.
Today, I continued with 13.6, 13.7, 13.8, 13.9 and 14.0 gr behind the same 180 Lee bullet, breech seated. Shot over the chrono to capture MV, ES and SD. Rather than bore everyone with target pictures, I put all the data into a spreadsheet that I'll keep in my records for this rifle and add to if and when I do any other testing.
Observations
I had made it to 13.5 gr of 2400 at the last test session. That load shot so well that I used it in the match on Sunday and won me the iron sight class.
Today, I continued with 13.6, 13.7, 13.8, 13.9 and 14.0 gr behind the same 180 Lee bullet, breech seated. Shot over the chrono to capture MV, ES and SD. Rather than bore everyone with target pictures, I put all the data into a spreadsheet that I'll keep in my records for this rifle and add to if and when I do any other testing.
| Rifle: Winchester High Wall | ||||||||
| Caliber: .32-40 Test Loads | ||||||||
| Powder: 2400 | ||||||||
| Date | Pwdr Charge | Bullet | Bullet wt | BS or Fixed | Avg MV | ES | SD | Group Size |
2/14/2023 | 12.0 | Lee 324-175 NGC | 180 | BS | 1431 | 102 | 30 | 2.750 |
2/14/2023 | 12.5 | Lee 324-175 NGC | 180 | BS | 1469 | 83 | 26 | 2.750 |
2/14/2023 | 13.0 | Lee 324-175 NGC | 180 | BS | 1523 | 79 | 24 | 2.250 |
2/14/2023 | 13.5 | Lee 324-175 NGC | 180 | BS | 1523 | 79 | 24 | 2.250 |
2/22/2023 | 13.6 | Lee 324-175 NGC | 180 | BS | 1565 | 52 | 18 | 3.375 |
2/22/2023 | 13.7 | Lee 324-175 NGC | 180 | BS | 1575 | 70 | 26 | 2.875 |
2/22/2023 | 13.8 | Lee 324-175 NGC | 180 | BS | 1595 | 51 | 18 | 1.250 |
2/22/2023 | 13.9 | Lee 324-175 NGC | 180 | BS | 1604 | 32 | 12 | 2.750 |
2/22/2023 | 14.0 | Lee 324-175 NGC | 180 | BS | 1590 | 41 | 15 | 3.187 |
Observations
- ES and SD numbers do not tend to line up with group size. One would think that If your ES and SD numbers were very low, you'd shoot a better group than you'd see with higher numbers. Not sure that holds true at 500 yds. But seems to be the case at 100 yds.
- As powder charge was increased, the ES and SD numbers improved. During the first session I happened to quit at 13.5 grains and both the group size and chrono numbers were the best. That turned out to be a coincidence. Note how the chrono numbers continued to improve while the group sized varied.
- The first testing was with 10 shot groups. This time it was 5 shots. So, perhaps not apples to apples. But it does appear that 13.8 under that 180 breech seated bullet is a keeper. But getting back to the number of shots, the 13.5 put 6 of the 10 shots into 7/8". So, strong evidence that 13.5 might be the true winner here.
- At 14.0 gr I was touching the 1600 fps range. This is above the mid-1500's range that the Schuetzen guys say is where the cartridge is the most accurate. At 1523 fps vs 1595, that's another vote for 13.5 over 13.8.
Petrol & Powder
Well-Known Member
You wrote:
If you settle on a bullet that is in the 165 grain range, those number for that 180 grain bullet will not mean much. However, the 165 gr bullet seems to be a more common bullet weight for that cartridge.
Your results with the 180 grain are very promising.
I think purchasing a custom bullet mold to get the diameter you need may be the most productive next step. Maybe a mold that drops a 165-170 grain bullet that is .327" in diameter and roughly the same profile as your Lee 180 gr bullet?
Keep us informed.
- "The first testing was with 10 shot groups. This time it was 5 shots. So, perhaps not apples to apples. But it does appear that 13.8 under that 180 breech seated bullet is a keeper. But getting back to the number of shots, the 13.5 put 6 of the 10 shots into 7/8". So, strong evidence that 13.5 might be the true winner here."
If you settle on a bullet that is in the 165 grain range, those number for that 180 grain bullet will not mean much. However, the 165 gr bullet seems to be a more common bullet weight for that cartridge.
Your results with the 180 grain are very promising.
I think purchasing a custom bullet mold to get the diameter you need may be the most productive next step. Maybe a mold that drops a 165-170 grain bullet that is .327" in diameter and roughly the same profile as your Lee 180 gr bullet?
Keep us informed.
Snakeoil
Well-Known Member
Yeah, that is the current struggle I have going on in my alleged brain. If this bullet shoots well, why order a mold for a different design. I checked the various mold makers to see if they have a bullet like this Lee bullet. The bullet design is very similar to the 314299 Lyman design I shoot in my Springfield with great success. But Arsenal and Accurate have nothing. NOE has nothing that light in a RN bullet. Besides, the Saeco 632 is the go-to bullet for this caliber in single shots. With a 16 twist, it probably will not tolerate a heavier bullet.
The 165 gr bullet I tried today is the Saeco design from a Saeco mold. Properly sized, I suspect it will be a tack driver.
Regardless, adding the scope will help clarify a lot. With the irons there is still a variable that I cannot control.
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Petrol & Powder
Well-Known Member
"Yeah, that is the current struggle I have going on in my alleged brain. If this bullet shoots well, why order a mold for a different design."?
To answer that question - "So you could get a 165grain(ish) bullet that was the correct diameter".
How about ordering a clone of the SAECO 632 but with the correct diameter for your rifle's bore?
The risk is the cost of the mold, but it's not a bad risk. In fact, it seems to be a pretty safe bet. It's unlikely a custom 165 grain bullet with an established, well proven profile, will shoot worse simply because it is a few thousanths of an inch fatter than typical for that profile.
Snakeoil
Well-Known Member
Today, I milled 0.040 off the rear block on the rifle. Putting the shorter 0.375 block on the back in place of the 0.437 block I had originally put on the rifle did give me enough to get on target at 100 yds. But the elevation setting with that block was -5 MOA. So, no chance of ever getting to 50 yds.
The 0.040 milled from the block should translate to just about 40 MOA. This should let me get to 50 yds and I know I can get out to 500.
The 0.040 milled from the block should translate to just about 40 MOA. This should let me get to 50 yds and I know I can get out to 500.
Ian
Notorious member
You have to contemplate the whole rifle system when working a load. Tight sd and es means jack if your load puts the bullet exiting the muzzle at a variable point in the whip. 13.5 vs 13.8 grains probably won't make any difference to burn consistency but can mean a huge difference in muzzle position when the bullet exits. This is why we study group shape as well as dispersion, it tells what the barrel is doing.
Snakeoil
Well-Known Member
So, today was 30 rounds fired at 500 yds in what I would call perfect conditions. Overcast sky, no wind, no mirage, no excuses. Perfect for understand how well the rifle/load are shooting.
I still have an extreme spread problem. Today I had a 75 fps ES, which equates to almost 19 inches of vertical change at 500 yds. And I was seeing all of that. I could put 2 or 3 rounds within a 2 inch group and then have one go a foot low or a foot high. But I also had some flyers that did not line up with the MV change. Also had some right/left flyers.
I'm going to scrub the barrel well tonight. I'm breech seating so that help with reducing ES. I'm thinking that since I'm using a 2-cavity mold and since I cut the GC out of both cavities, one might be a tad different than the other. I know I can see a slight line in the bottom band from one cavity. So, I may sort them using that identifier and then weight them within a given lot and shoot within 0.5 gr of bullet weight. If the ES stays high and flyers continue, I might have two things going on. The bullet goes trans sonic just after 300 yds. The Lee bullet might not like that phase and go nuts in flight.
Watching King of 2 Miles, one of their rifles started showing huge ES numbers using the same ammo as the other rifle that was in the single digits. It turned out that the bore had to be scrubbed hard and then refouled and it would shoot well. That might be what is going on here. I had not cleaned the bore since I shot the rifle on Sunday. So, it could simply be old fouling.
I wish I had pulled the trigger on the new mold sooner. It's only been a week since I ordered the new mold. I thought it was 2. I'm not good at waiting.
I still have an extreme spread problem. Today I had a 75 fps ES, which equates to almost 19 inches of vertical change at 500 yds. And I was seeing all of that. I could put 2 or 3 rounds within a 2 inch group and then have one go a foot low or a foot high. But I also had some flyers that did not line up with the MV change. Also had some right/left flyers.
I'm going to scrub the barrel well tonight. I'm breech seating so that help with reducing ES. I'm thinking that since I'm using a 2-cavity mold and since I cut the GC out of both cavities, one might be a tad different than the other. I know I can see a slight line in the bottom band from one cavity. So, I may sort them using that identifier and then weight them within a given lot and shoot within 0.5 gr of bullet weight. If the ES stays high and flyers continue, I might have two things going on. The bullet goes trans sonic just after 300 yds. The Lee bullet might not like that phase and go nuts in flight.
Watching King of 2 Miles, one of their rifles started showing huge ES numbers using the same ammo as the other rifle that was in the single digits. It turned out that the bore had to be scrubbed hard and then refouled and it would shoot well. That might be what is going on here. I had not cleaned the bore since I shot the rifle on Sunday. So, it could simply be old fouling.
I wish I had pulled the trigger on the new mold sooner. It's only been a week since I ordered the new mold. I thought it was 2. I'm not good at waiting.
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Snakeoil
Well-Known Member
Cleaned the bore yesterday. It was an eye opener. Looked great before cleaning. Few powder flakes. Ran a dry patch down it and no lead appeared. But I will say that it took most of my strength to get the patch started down the bore. So, went at it first with some vintage Hoppe's No. 9. Then scrubbed again using Kroil. Let the Kroil sit for about 15 minutes and then scubbed again followed by dry patches. The amount of crud that came out was amazing. And with each pass, it got easier and easier to push a patch down the bore. Might have found my problem.
Petrol & Powder
Well-Known Member
When your new mold arrives you'll be ready
RBHarter
West Central AR
Old skool wrench benders will tell you that if you don't have white steel in the bore and you run another different base solvent in it it'll be just like you started over again. You might even get that if you do have white steel ...... Think seasoning with the carbon soaking up the solvent until you're washing the solvent carbon with the same solvent . It's kind of like changing brands of oil ant the first 2 oil changes looking like tar oil at 2000 miles before it's settles back down to deep chocolate at 5000 miles .
Snakeoil
Well-Known Member
Was not sure if I should post this in my new mold thread or here. Decided here is where this belongs as it is a continuation of the saga.
Armed with my new Accurate Mold 32-175T bullet, I went to Wilton today. It was raining, but not hard and there did not seem to be any wind. Loaded up 30 cases with 13.8 of 2400 and ran 30 bullets thru the now .326 sizing die and lubed with 50/50. Remember, I breech seat with this rifle.
I had breech seated a bullet yesterday and noticed that it was not engraving on the back band. So, I adjusted the breech seater to get engraving on that back band.
Started at 300 yds using the standard pig. First round high. Next on-target and put the remaining 8 rounds on the target. Turn out the wind was present at Wilton, but was not having a major effect at 300 yds. Moved to 400 and things got a little more difficult. The various wind flags on the range were all doing different stuff. It took two sighters to get on the Turkey, but then I missed a few times by just a hair. Steve was trying call the wind, but was struggling and I could not hold off to compensate. Moved to 500 and things go interesting. We have a .22 BPCR course set up on the right side of the range and you end up shooting over the last two berm when shooting at 500 yds. We had some serious head winds combined with cross winds that were coming in gusts as well as steady. I was shooting a 26" round gong and put 3 rounds within 3 inches. Then the next shot went high and right, way off the target. Hmmm... Fired again with same hold and put bullet in exactly the same spot in the dirt. Hmmmm... since this is a new bullet, and I did not weigh them for this session, it could be some very light bullets causing this. I fired 2 more rounds with the same hold and put them all into the same spot in the dirt. Hmmmm... now thinking it is the wind coming over those berms downrange is pusing the bullets up and right. It lines up with what a friend was experiencing at one of the matches. He suddently had a round go high and right. So, we may need to put up some more flags to figure out what might be going on here.
Bottom line is the rifle/bullet combo looks promising. Since the last bullet I tried and this one both weigh 180 grains, I simply went with the load that worked best for that other bullet. Today was a proof of concept exercise and nothing more. At 300, I was shooting sub MOA once I got 5 rounds down the clean bore. And I was shooting similar groups at the other yardages until the wind starting to play with me.
Tomorrow, the match is round gongs at 300, 400 and 500. If you get all 10 at 500 you get a silver bullet. I'll be shooting my 03 tomorrow. I know it will do its part if I do mine.
Armed with my new Accurate Mold 32-175T bullet, I went to Wilton today. It was raining, but not hard and there did not seem to be any wind. Loaded up 30 cases with 13.8 of 2400 and ran 30 bullets thru the now .326 sizing die and lubed with 50/50. Remember, I breech seat with this rifle.
I had breech seated a bullet yesterday and noticed that it was not engraving on the back band. So, I adjusted the breech seater to get engraving on that back band.
Started at 300 yds using the standard pig. First round high. Next on-target and put the remaining 8 rounds on the target. Turn out the wind was present at Wilton, but was not having a major effect at 300 yds. Moved to 400 and things got a little more difficult. The various wind flags on the range were all doing different stuff. It took two sighters to get on the Turkey, but then I missed a few times by just a hair. Steve was trying call the wind, but was struggling and I could not hold off to compensate. Moved to 500 and things go interesting. We have a .22 BPCR course set up on the right side of the range and you end up shooting over the last two berm when shooting at 500 yds. We had some serious head winds combined with cross winds that were coming in gusts as well as steady. I was shooting a 26" round gong and put 3 rounds within 3 inches. Then the next shot went high and right, way off the target. Hmmm... Fired again with same hold and put bullet in exactly the same spot in the dirt. Hmmmm... since this is a new bullet, and I did not weigh them for this session, it could be some very light bullets causing this. I fired 2 more rounds with the same hold and put them all into the same spot in the dirt. Hmmmm... now thinking it is the wind coming over those berms downrange is pusing the bullets up and right. It lines up with what a friend was experiencing at one of the matches. He suddently had a round go high and right. So, we may need to put up some more flags to figure out what might be going on here.
Bottom line is the rifle/bullet combo looks promising. Since the last bullet I tried and this one both weigh 180 grains, I simply went with the load that worked best for that other bullet. Today was a proof of concept exercise and nothing more. At 300, I was shooting sub MOA once I got 5 rounds down the clean bore. And I was shooting similar groups at the other yardages until the wind starting to play with me.
Tomorrow, the match is round gongs at 300, 400 and 500. If you get all 10 at 500 you get a silver bullet. I'll be shooting my 03 tomorrow. I know it will do its part if I do mine.
Petrol & Powder
Well-Known Member
Sounds Good.
Maybe some more testing WITHOUT the wind issue would be called for.
You may need a baseline without the extra variables. (like weird wind conditions)
Maybe some more testing WITHOUT the wind issue would be called for.
You may need a baseline without the extra variables. (like weird wind conditions)
Snakeoil
Well-Known Member
Well yeah... that's kinda obvious. Yesterday was just to scratch the itch I had to try the new bullet. I will begin a new ladder test at another club that is about 6 miles from my house. Range is narrow, and both sides are lined with berms and tall trees making wind a non-issue except on really bad days.
Snakeoil
Well-Known Member
Went to Watervliet club to do the first load tests with the new Accurate 32-175 bullet. The bullet made to my dimensions to fit the oversize bore in the High Wall ended up weighing 180 grains. That is fortuitous because the over size Lee bullet I had been using previously also weighed 180 grains. So, I’ll be able to compare results.
I started with 12.0 grains and went up to 14.0 grains in 0.5 gr. Increments. So, 5 separate loads. All were fired at 100 yds and shot over my chronograph.
Compared to what I had been seeing with the Lee bullet, these results are much more promising. Before getting into the results, a little background on the bullet.
Below is a diagram showing the dimensions I’d requested from Accurate Bullets. Tom guarantees +/- 0.001”. And you can specify if you want it as +0.002/ – 0.000 or +/- 0.001 or +0.000/-0.002. I specified +/- 0.001. The diagram below includes a table on the left that is actually an Excel spreadsheet that will calculate the diameter of each of the 6 driving bands based upon the step change I put in and the initial base band dimeter. I developed the steps by measuring SAECO 632 bullets that 2 different friends cast with their SAECO molds. Their bullets should weigh 165 grains, but I never weighed them.
Another detail that I believe is playing a major role in the results below is after casting the new bullet, I breech seated one and then knocked it out of the bore. I noticed that it had not engraved on the last driving band. So, I adjusted my breech seater to have that band fully engrave the rifling.
I also measured one of the Accurate bullets to compare the as-cast dimensions to what I specified to Tom at Accurate. The small table to the right of the bullet diagram shows that the man knows what he’s doing. He asked for the alloy to be used and I told him 30:1 Lead/Tin.
So, now to the results. The target has all the pertinent info on it. But I made a table as well with the data for ease of comparison.
Note that 1st group uses 4 shots for the ES and SD since the first was a fouling shot. There are only 3 shots in that first group because the first 2 were off the paper.
Here’s the target. Note the shots are numbered. I wanted to see if I could draw any relationships between velocities and shot placement. There were none.
Conclusions/Observations
I’m wishing I had shot some foulers and gotten on target with other loads rather than start with the 12 grain loads. The 3 shot group does not tell as much as a 5 shot group. But the 4 shots ES and SD numbers and the size of that 3 shot group says I need to revisit 12.0 gr. of 2400.
All of the groups are decent. But 12.0 and 14.0 are both sub-MOA. So, I need to work up smaller incremental group sizes around those two loads and see what they produce for both accuracy and ES and SD numbers. Although ES and SD are not that important at 100 yds., they do show themselves at extended yardages.
Note the identical pattern for the 12.5 and 13.0 groups. Not only is the disbursement the same, but the order of shot placement is almost the same. Only shots 1 and 2 change positions.
Shot 5 on the 14.0 group might have been me. I noticed that the rifle had slid back in the rest and was against the Schnabel forend tip. So, I slid it forward for that last shot. If the other 4 shots had recoiled against the Schnabel end and the last one did not, that would explain the 1st four being higher than the 5th. Taking out that 5th shot makes that group the smallest at 0.515.
The ES and SD numbers are vastly improved from what I was seeing with the Lee bullet in previous tests. I am pretty sure that the improved numbers are due to seating the bullet deeper into the bore and engraving that bottom band.
It certainly looks like this rifle will be a shooter.
I started with 12.0 grains and went up to 14.0 grains in 0.5 gr. Increments. So, 5 separate loads. All were fired at 100 yds and shot over my chronograph.
Compared to what I had been seeing with the Lee bullet, these results are much more promising. Before getting into the results, a little background on the bullet.
Below is a diagram showing the dimensions I’d requested from Accurate Bullets. Tom guarantees +/- 0.001”. And you can specify if you want it as +0.002/ – 0.000 or +/- 0.001 or +0.000/-0.002. I specified +/- 0.001. The diagram below includes a table on the left that is actually an Excel spreadsheet that will calculate the diameter of each of the 6 driving bands based upon the step change I put in and the initial base band dimeter. I developed the steps by measuring SAECO 632 bullets that 2 different friends cast with their SAECO molds. Their bullets should weigh 165 grains, but I never weighed them.
Another detail that I believe is playing a major role in the results below is after casting the new bullet, I breech seated one and then knocked it out of the bore. I noticed that it had not engraved on the last driving band. So, I adjusted my breech seater to have that band fully engrave the rifling.
I also measured one of the Accurate bullets to compare the as-cast dimensions to what I specified to Tom at Accurate. The small table to the right of the bullet diagram shows that the man knows what he’s doing. He asked for the alloy to be used and I told him 30:1 Lead/Tin.
So, now to the results. The target has all the pertinent info on it. But I made a table as well with the data for ease of comparison.
Note that 1st group uses 4 shots for the ES and SD since the first was a fouling shot. There are only 3 shots in that first group because the first 2 were off the paper.
Here’s the target. Note the shots are numbered. I wanted to see if I could draw any relationships between velocities and shot placement. There were none.
Conclusions/Observations
I’m wishing I had shot some foulers and gotten on target with other loads rather than start with the 12 grain loads. The 3 shot group does not tell as much as a 5 shot group. But the 4 shots ES and SD numbers and the size of that 3 shot group says I need to revisit 12.0 gr. of 2400.
All of the groups are decent. But 12.0 and 14.0 are both sub-MOA. So, I need to work up smaller incremental group sizes around those two loads and see what they produce for both accuracy and ES and SD numbers. Although ES and SD are not that important at 100 yds., they do show themselves at extended yardages.
Note the identical pattern for the 12.5 and 13.0 groups. Not only is the disbursement the same, but the order of shot placement is almost the same. Only shots 1 and 2 change positions.
Shot 5 on the 14.0 group might have been me. I noticed that the rifle had slid back in the rest and was against the Schnabel forend tip. So, I slid it forward for that last shot. If the other 4 shots had recoiled against the Schnabel end and the last one did not, that would explain the 1st four being higher than the 5th. Taking out that 5th shot makes that group the smallest at 0.515.
The ES and SD numbers are vastly improved from what I was seeing with the Lee bullet in previous tests. I am pretty sure that the improved numbers are due to seating the bullet deeper into the bore and engraving that bottom band.
It certainly looks like this rifle will be a shooter.
Petrol & Powder
Well-Known Member
With that limited amount of data I would say the last group with the 14 grain loading is the most promising.
The first group is tight, but it's only 3 shots.
Looking good overall.
The first group is tight, but it's only 3 shots.
Looking good overall.
Snakeoil
Well-Known Member
I agree. The Schuetzen guys that my buddy Craig spoke to about the .32-40, said they are pushing them around 1570 FPS. So, I'm going to work up another bunch of test loads around 14.0 gr of 2400. But I don't want to ignore that 12.0 group. The ES and SD numbers are for 4 shots and they are impressive. Craig is using 12.3 behind the same bullet, only weighing in a 165 gr. So, there could be a sweet spot around that load as well.
The killer is I'm just about out of Fed Gold Match LRP. I have bought 10K CCI LRP a few months ago. Should probably use those as I work up the loads since they will be my only primer once the Feds are gone.
Snakeoil
Well-Known Member
Mother Nature smiled down on me today and rained while I was loading and then cleared up just before I started putting my gear in the SUV to head to the range.
Today's testing was fine tuning of the two most promising loads from yesterday's testing, 12.0 and 14.0 gr of 2400. There was another unfortunate change today. I ran out of Fed Gold Medal Match primers and had to use standard Fed LR primers.
Again, all alone at the club. Was in and out in 1 hour including set-up and I sure did not rush.
Here are the results in tabular form and a photo of today's targets.
So, the observations made yesterday regarding the best 2 loads were proven out with todays testing. What I did today was load 0.2 gr either side of those two loads from yesterday, and also repeated those loads for 6 loads total. I also loaded 10 rounds of the 12.0 load and used the first 5 as sighters on the top center bull and fouling shots. The two shots on the far left of the that sighter bull, one at 9:00 and the other at 10:00 were the first two shots.
I made no changes to the scope setting. But the scope was removed when I racked the rifle and reinstalled this morning. That probably accounts for the shots being a bit to the left compared to yesterday.
As you can see, 11.8 gr of powder won the day with a 0.559 group, and 12.0 and 12.2 nipping at it's heels, both with sub-MOA groups. That pretty much confirms that at least for this yardage, the lower powder charge is the winner. A question that pops into my mind is if the change in primers had an effect on those groups. So, looking at yesterday's 12.0 group at 0.62 for 3 shots and today's 12.0 group at .801 for 5 shots pretty much tells me that the primer change had no effect and the difference in the group size was well within the noise range. Afterall, we are talking about a 105-year-old barrel that someone recut at some point in its' life to be about 0.005 oversize and still left behind some pitting. This ain't no stinking modern benchrest rifle shooting Berger VLDs at the speed of light. I do see a slight reduction in velocity for the 12.0 loads from yesterday to today. But the 14.0 load are within 7 fps. So again, within the noise level.
So, so far, I'm quite pleased with the bullet's performance in this rifle. I may have gotten better performance from the Lee bullet had I seated it deeper into the bore and engraved the bottom band. But I melted most of those bullets down when I cast these and although I found a small bucket of culls that did not meet weight tolerance when I was testing loads a month or so ago, I doubt that I'll retest them with the deeper seating depth. If that Lee bullet were to outshoot my new megabucks Accurate mold, I'd be forced to find a tall building and jump.
When I was priming cases this morning, I primed all 60 of the cases I use for a match. So, there are 25 cases already primed. I think I'll prime 5 more and load 30 rounds, maybe even 40 to take to Wilton tomorrow and shoot 200, 300, 400 and 500 yards. I am concerned that the extended yardages might push the limits of a bullet departing at 1358 fps. That's about 100 fps slower than my 208 gr bullet is leaving my 03 Springfield.
Today's testing was fine tuning of the two most promising loads from yesterday's testing, 12.0 and 14.0 gr of 2400. There was another unfortunate change today. I ran out of Fed Gold Medal Match primers and had to use standard Fed LR primers.
Again, all alone at the club. Was in and out in 1 hour including set-up and I sure did not rush.
Here are the results in tabular form and a photo of today's targets.
| Date | Pwdr Charge | Primer | Bullet | Bullet wt | BS or Fixed | Avg MV | ES | SD | Group Size | Comments |
5/2/2023 | 11.8 | FLR | Accurate 32-175 | 180 | BS | 1358 | 30 | 10 | 0.559 | BS depth to engrave bottom land all shots. |
5/2/2023 | 12.0 | FLR | Accurate 32-175 | 180 | BS | 1399 | 29 | 9 | 0.801 | 5 sighers then 5 for group. 1st shot deleted as fouling shot. |
5/2/2023 | 12.2 | FLR | Accurate 32-175 | 180 | BS | 1427 | 37 | 13 | 0.959 | |
5/2/2023 | 13.8 | FLR | Accurate 32-175 | 180 | BS | 1559 | 27 | 9 | 1.568 | |
5/2/2023 | 14.0 | FLR | Accurate 32-175 | 180 | BS | 1549 | 30 | 12 | 1.097 | |
5/2/2023 | 14.2 | FLR | Accurate 32-175 | 180 | BS | 1589 | 35 | 12 | 1.205 |
So, the observations made yesterday regarding the best 2 loads were proven out with todays testing. What I did today was load 0.2 gr either side of those two loads from yesterday, and also repeated those loads for 6 loads total. I also loaded 10 rounds of the 12.0 load and used the first 5 as sighters on the top center bull and fouling shots. The two shots on the far left of the that sighter bull, one at 9:00 and the other at 10:00 were the first two shots.
I made no changes to the scope setting. But the scope was removed when I racked the rifle and reinstalled this morning. That probably accounts for the shots being a bit to the left compared to yesterday.
As you can see, 11.8 gr of powder won the day with a 0.559 group, and 12.0 and 12.2 nipping at it's heels, both with sub-MOA groups. That pretty much confirms that at least for this yardage, the lower powder charge is the winner. A question that pops into my mind is if the change in primers had an effect on those groups. So, looking at yesterday's 12.0 group at 0.62 for 3 shots and today's 12.0 group at .801 for 5 shots pretty much tells me that the primer change had no effect and the difference in the group size was well within the noise range. Afterall, we are talking about a 105-year-old barrel that someone recut at some point in its' life to be about 0.005 oversize and still left behind some pitting. This ain't no stinking modern benchrest rifle shooting Berger VLDs at the speed of light. I do see a slight reduction in velocity for the 12.0 loads from yesterday to today. But the 14.0 load are within 7 fps. So again, within the noise level.
So, so far, I'm quite pleased with the bullet's performance in this rifle. I may have gotten better performance from the Lee bullet had I seated it deeper into the bore and engraved the bottom band. But I melted most of those bullets down when I cast these and although I found a small bucket of culls that did not meet weight tolerance when I was testing loads a month or so ago, I doubt that I'll retest them with the deeper seating depth. If that Lee bullet were to outshoot my new megabucks Accurate mold, I'd be forced to find a tall building and jump.
When I was priming cases this morning, I primed all 60 of the cases I use for a match. So, there are 25 cases already primed. I think I'll prime 5 more and load 30 rounds, maybe even 40 to take to Wilton tomorrow and shoot 200, 300, 400 and 500 yards. I am concerned that the extended yardages might push the limits of a bullet departing at 1358 fps. That's about 100 fps slower than my 208 gr bullet is leaving my 03 Springfield.