High Point 45 Cabine

[RicinYakima]

I agree and have often wondered why the M-1 carbine was designed around a .30 caliber cartridge. While the 30 Carbine cartridge was developed from the 32 SLR, a better choice would have had a larger diameter bullet. A .35 would have been a more lethal choice without making the carbine larger, heavier or giving much more recoil. There was history with the 1905 Winchester self loading rifle in 35 SLR and 351 SLR, including it's use by the French during WW1, so a new cartridge design similar to the later 9mm Winchester Magnum would have made sense.

Weight of ammo, and material to make them is so much less than 45 ACP. While Carbines received a lot of combat time, they were not designed for that, but to replace the Model 1911 pistol. A hit with the .30 M1 is better than a miss with .45.

It wasn't until after WW2 that LTC George did the analysis of the Infantry weapons in the Pacific, that it was realized that it was better than expected. It was the next to last WW2 weapon sold as surplus and that was almost 20 years after the war.

 

[richhodg66]

I cannot cite the source, but interviews with quite a few German soldiers who had fought all the way through the war said the only American weapon they would have preferred to the ones available to them was the M1 Carbine. I do remember reading that years ago, I hope I can dredge up where.

Hard for me to believe, who wouldn't prefer a Garand to ANY of the issue rifles and a 1911 is certainly better than the other issue pistols pf the day.

 

[fiver]

when you got all the stuff to crank out a barrel and make the hole already it's kind of hard to crank out something different on short notice.
i always kind of wondered why they weren't issuing bajillions of carbines in vietnam.
they wanted something lighter and handier so the troops could carry 500 rounds of ammo easily, seems they had it in hand and ready to roll.

 

[RicinYakima]

I cannot cite the source, but interviews with quite a few German soldiers who had fought all the way through the war said the only American weapon they would have preferred to the ones available to them was the M1 Carbine. I do remember reading that years ago, I hope I can dredge up where.

Hard for me to believe, who wouldn't prefer a Garand to ANY of the issue rifles and a 1911 is certainly better than the other issue pistols pf the day.

Have you carried a 10 pound rifle and ammo for twenty miles a day, in the rain and heat/cold? I was friends with a guy from the 82 Airborne from Normandy to the Bulge. He said maybe one day in ten he would fire 8 rounds. The tenth day it would be all he could get. Everyone who wasn't a "rifleman" or Staff Sargent and up, got a carbine as soon as possible. Garand was a better weapon, but harder to live with in the field.

 

[RicinYakima]

when you got all the stuff to crank out a barrel and make the hole already it's kind of hard to crank out something different on short notice.
i always kind of wondered why they weren't issuing bajillions of carbines in vietnam.
they wanted something lighter and handier so the troops could carry 500 rounds of ammo easily, seems they had it in hand and ready to roll.

They did issue bajillion carbines in Viet Nam, but only to the South Viet Nam troops. I have been told in the early days, the SF guys really liked the carbine for that reason: a 20 round in the rifle, a 30 round in their pocket and two boxes of 50 in the pack. A guy by the name of Habersham wrote a book about 1965 SF guys. I think it was called "A hot day in the sun".

He later wrote a book "The killing fields" about the Kamer Rouge take over of Cambodia and won the Pulitzer Prize for the year and made into a movie that won some awards.

 

[richhodg66]

Have you carried a 10 pound rifle and ammo for twenty miles a day, in the rain and heat/cold? I was friends with a guy from the 82 Airborne from Normandy to the Bulge. He said maybe one day in ten he would fire 8 rounds. The tenth day it would be all he could get. Everyone who wasn't a "rifleman" or Staff Sargent and up, got a carbine as soon as possible. Garand was a better weapon, but harder to live with in the field.

So, you'd take a '98 Mauser over a Grand because it's a tad lighter?

 

[Bret4207]

when you got all the stuff to crank out a barrel and make the hole already it's kind of hard to crank out something different on short notice.
i always kind of wondered why they weren't issuing bajillions of carbines in vietnam.
they wanted something lighter and handier so the troops could carry 500 rounds of ammo easily, seems they had it in hand and ready to roll.

No one would have been making money re-issuing an old rifle already in stock. But the idea was, why didn't they go a a 45 M1 Carbine instead of a 30. Ordnance says so, that's why.

 

[Bret4207]

I cannot cite the source, but interviews with quite a few German soldiers who had fought all the way through the war said the only American weapon they would have preferred to the ones available to them was the M1 Carbine. I do remember reading that years ago, I hope I can dredge up where.

Hard for me to believe, who wouldn't prefer a Garand to ANY of the issue rifles and a 1911 is certainly better than the other issue pistols pf the day.

The Germans had some really nice stuff in WW2. Chances are they simply preferred what they were familiar with to the Garand. They sure weren't limited to 98K's.

 

[RicinYakima]

So, you'd take a '98 Mauser over a Grand because it's a tad lighter?

Maybe. What is my job? If I'm a rifleman on the firing line, the M1. If I'm a squad leader maybe the Carbine. As a artillery loader, it doesn't matter: 03A3 Springfield is as good as anything else. As an MP doing road patrol in a jeep, a BAR or Thompson.

 

[RicinYakima]

The Germans had some really nice stuff in WW2. Chances are they simply preferred what they were familiar with to the Garand. They sure weren't limited to 98K's.

A lot of it was tactics. The German assault and defense was based upon the machine gun team, riflemen were to defend the MG. The US used the machine gun as a base of fire and support for riflemen attacking or retreating. And all of that after pounding the crap out of each other with artillery.

 

[462]

An ex-neighbor, Ken, was a combat wounded and PTSDd '67-'68 Viet Nam Army infantry veteran. He didn't talk about it, but when prompted he did say he didn't like the M-16. When his squad's point man became short, Ken volunteered to take his place just so he could get the guy's M14. A case of replacing a carbine with a rifle.

 

[PED1945]

when you got all the stuff to crank out a barrel and make the hole already it's kind of hard to crank out something different on short notice.
i always kind of wondered why they weren't issuing bajillions of carbines in vietnam.
they wanted something lighter and handier so the troops could carry 500 rounds of ammo easily, seems they had it in hand and ready to roll.

The Vietnamese Popular Forces in my area loved the M-1 Carbine. It weighed half as much as the M-1 Rifle and recoil was much more manageable for a bunch of small guys.

 

[PED1945]

They did issue bajillion carbines in Viet Nam, but only to the South Viet Nam troops.

Anecdotal info: A friend who served with the USMC in the Ia Drang area carried an M-1 Carbine with the buttstock sawed off.

 

[PED1945]

Regarding availability of weapons in Viet Nam: Anything issued to the ARVN, Popular Forces, local police or military police was likely to be available on the black market.

For example, anybody who wanted a Thompson SMG could steal or buy one from the Quan Canh. I had used one before joining the Army and, remembering how heavy and akward they were, didn't want one. Was happy to keep my M-16, flaws and all.

 

[Dimner]

I recall seeing a picture of a Hi-Point carbine and thinking, (yup just searched for an image on the web), that it may indeed be among the ugliest of ugly guns ever created. Now if Ruger would just make a 10-45, with a Walnut stock.....

That hi-point is awful looking, but in my book the worlds ugliest gun goes to the mossberg 464 spx.

 

[462]

The only things that would make it any uglier would be a Picatinney mount with a flashlight, a scope, and red dot attached to it*, and a bi-pod.

*Yep, there was a range commando who showed up with a scope attached to the top of his AR-type carbine's Picatinney mount, and a red dot angled off to the right side. Figured he had to turn the gun about 45-degrees to the left, almost gangster handgun style, to view the red dot. I don't own a red dot, but wonder if they have enough adjustment to compensate for the 45-degree
off-set.

 

[fiver]

they must, i have seen open sights set off at 45* like that.
you just slightly roll the rifle to the peep sights and off you go, good nuff for 25 yds.

 

[fiver]

the only thing wrong with that mossburg is the stupid M-4 type stock.
you can unscrew or cap those hand cutters from the front, but that butt stock is just plain stupid.

 

[RicinYakima]

Regarding availability of weapons in Viet Nam: Anything issued to the ARVN, Popular Forces, local police or military police was likely to be available on the black market.

For example, anybody who wanted a Thompson SMG could steal or buy one from the Quan Canh. I had used one before joining the Army and, remembering how heavy and akward they were, didn't want one. Was happy to keep my M-16, flaws and all.

I was assigned for a while as 2nd assistant for an M-60. While firing tracers from the M16 I could see than less than 25% went straight firing into the jungle, the rest spinning everywhere. The next trip out I took an M1 Thompson I had traded a bunk of plywood for to an ARVN NCO. Since we were Airmobile Combat Engineers, we didn't walk all that much on projects, I was mostly security on stationary projects. 45 ACP will go through leaves and small stuff pretty straight. You could get the 20 round magazines easily and all the .45 ACP you could pack on the lift.

 

[ChestnutLouie]

I got a Hi-Point carbine in 45ACP (camo color as the black one was so ugly that it would have scared it's gun safe mates) that being said it's my favorire range toy. I cast Lee 452-228-1R bullets and powder coat them. In time I installed a Vortex crossfire red dot on it (MONEY WELL SPENT).
I did have to polish the feed ramp and the entrance to the chamber but it shoots and shoots well.