It is like a 45 Long Colt.I still want to know what a 40 short is???
is the 9mm gonna be the death of the 40 short?
- Thread starter fiver
- Start date
Eutectic
Active Member
The 9mm and the .40 S&W could both disappear and it wouldn't both me one iota.... If I'm 'forced' to carry a semi-auto it will be a 1911 type .45 Auto. I am WAY more confident and secure with a double action revolver to be honest. I want enough caliber (.44 or .45) and enough 'load' that I don't loose any time in our double action 'steel men' event. By this I mean full bore .44 Mag will cost you some time from recoil recovery... A 240-250gr Keith bullet at about 1000fps will keep your times at the lowest and any adversary 'down and out' much better than the two wimps mentioned in my first five words.
Just some thoughts from an old f@rt that agrees with Elmer Keith!
Pete
Just some thoughts from an old f@rt that agrees with Elmer Keith!
Pete
I have fired the 40 S&W it's that 40 short I was wondering about. Where does one go for a unicorn anyways.
USSR
Finger Lakes Region of NY
KHornet
Well-Known Member
As far as I am concerned, I like all of them that go bang and put the bullet on target.
Have a couple of 9's, 2-3 357's, and a 45Colt. O'ya, and a little 380 that is strictly a
get off me gun. All have a purpose, but if I had to stick to one, would be the 357.
Just me!
Paul
Have a couple of 9's, 2-3 357's, and a 45Colt. O'ya, and a little 380 that is strictly a
get off me gun. All have a purpose, but if I had to stick to one, would be the 357.
Just me!
Paul
Sig556r
Active Member
Depends on purpose...
.40S&W (M&P) is practical (& cheaper too) when competing in major PF compared to .38super or .45acp
For IDPA SSP (Glock 34) & ESP (STI 1911), 9mm is hard to beat in reloading cost & recoil
For home defense pistol, I keep a Sig 1911 in .45acp close by
For EDC, Sig 238 or an LCP with right ammo & shot placement practice
I also keep extra 40S&W barrels for my P226 & P229 just because I keep getting brass each range time now I got plenty. No wonder 40SW brass is cheaper nowadays than 9s
I may get a revolver for IDPA SSR or ESR in 9mm once Sig starts making them, not much competition in those levels...
.40S&W (M&P) is practical (& cheaper too) when competing in major PF compared to .38super or .45acp
For IDPA SSP (Glock 34) & ESP (STI 1911), 9mm is hard to beat in reloading cost & recoil
For home defense pistol, I keep a Sig 1911 in .45acp close by
For EDC, Sig 238 or an LCP with right ammo & shot placement practice
I also keep extra 40S&W barrels for my P226 & P229 just because I keep getting brass each range time now I got plenty. No wonder 40SW brass is cheaper nowadays than 9s
I may get a revolver for IDPA SSR or ESR in 9mm once Sig starts making them, not much competition in those levels...
Hawk
Well-Known Member
I'm a .40 S&W fan.
I own 5 .40 S&Ws and 4 9MMs.
I carry .40 S&Ws as my SD firearm (because it's the most powerful pistol I can carry without going to a 10MM and I worry about over penetration with the 10) and have the 9MMs just in case the SHTF and for the wife to carry (she has diminished upper arm strength and the .40 is right on the verge of being to much in a compact). Also, the military has a gazillion (Scientific term for more than you can count) rounds of the 9MM and in the case of a SHTF, you are probably more apt to find 9MM ammo than anything else.
I figure if a 124 grain boolit doing 1200 fps is good, a 135 gr. boolit at 1300 fps or a 155 gr. boolit at 1200 fps, with a bigger meplat, is better.
Also, my Glock magazines hold 17 rounds of 9MM and 15 Rounds of .40 S&W. I figure the two extra rounds won't make a difference unless I get caught up in a drug or gang shootout. In that case, I always have extra magazines.
I know several LE officers and SWAT members from multiple LE agencies. The local LEs all carry .40s and the SWAT departments all carry .357 Sigs.
The .357 Sig will never equal the .357 Mag or .40 and there will never be a shortage of .40 brass.
I really like revolvers and have more of them than pistols, but 16 rounds in the .40 versus 6 in the .357 Mag with close to the same foot print is a no brainer in a big metroplex with gangs or working in the woods with packs of coyotes or wild hogs.
In my opinion, the 9MM is popular is because it is the current military round, reduced recoil for small/novice shooters, like women (not being sexist, they're usually a little bit small in stature than men) and ammo is cheaper than the other calibers. Also, I have coached a lot of novice shooters and the .40 seems too intimidating at first. Besides, every gang banger on TV shoots a 9MM rotated 90 degrees counter clockwise.
In revolvers, you have to go to the magnums (.357 and up) to get equal or high ballistics than the 9MM, with high recoil and muzzle blast.
In power, you have 9MM (124 gr. at 1,200), .357 Sig (125 gr. at 1,350), .40 S&W (135 gr. at 1,350) and .357 Mag ( 125 gr. at 1,500).
I also have two 10MM. The full size Glock is fine with full power loads in experienced hands. The compact is a hand full even for expreinced shooters!
Just my opinion.
I own 5 .40 S&Ws and 4 9MMs.
I carry .40 S&Ws as my SD firearm (because it's the most powerful pistol I can carry without going to a 10MM and I worry about over penetration with the 10) and have the 9MMs just in case the SHTF and for the wife to carry (she has diminished upper arm strength and the .40 is right on the verge of being to much in a compact). Also, the military has a gazillion (Scientific term for more than you can count) rounds of the 9MM and in the case of a SHTF, you are probably more apt to find 9MM ammo than anything else.
I figure if a 124 grain boolit doing 1200 fps is good, a 135 gr. boolit at 1300 fps or a 155 gr. boolit at 1200 fps, with a bigger meplat, is better.
Also, my Glock magazines hold 17 rounds of 9MM and 15 Rounds of .40 S&W. I figure the two extra rounds won't make a difference unless I get caught up in a drug or gang shootout. In that case, I always have extra magazines.
I know several LE officers and SWAT members from multiple LE agencies. The local LEs all carry .40s and the SWAT departments all carry .357 Sigs.
The .357 Sig will never equal the .357 Mag or .40 and there will never be a shortage of .40 brass.
I really like revolvers and have more of them than pistols, but 16 rounds in the .40 versus 6 in the .357 Mag with close to the same foot print is a no brainer in a big metroplex with gangs or working in the woods with packs of coyotes or wild hogs.
In my opinion, the 9MM is popular is because it is the current military round, reduced recoil for small/novice shooters, like women (not being sexist, they're usually a little bit small in stature than men) and ammo is cheaper than the other calibers. Also, I have coached a lot of novice shooters and the .40 seems too intimidating at first. Besides, every gang banger on TV shoots a 9MM rotated 90 degrees counter clockwise.
In revolvers, you have to go to the magnums (.357 and up) to get equal or high ballistics than the 9MM, with high recoil and muzzle blast.
In power, you have 9MM (124 gr. at 1,200), .357 Sig (125 gr. at 1,350), .40 S&W (135 gr. at 1,350) and .357 Mag ( 125 gr. at 1,500).
I also have two 10MM. The full size Glock is fine with full power loads in experienced hands. The compact is a hand full even for expreinced shooters!
Just my opinion.
fiver
Well-Known Member
I find it ironic that other rounds very similar in diameter and power to the 40 have failed or were very unpopular over the years.
the 41 special & 40 corbon, would have been a bigger hits if the 40 was wanted.
and how come there isn't a 375 semi-auto round?
I have always felt the 40 gives just about all the recoil the 45 has and the power of the 9mm on target not quite the combination I want.
the 41 special & 40 corbon, would have been a bigger hits if the 40 was wanted.
and how come there isn't a 375 semi-auto round?
I have always felt the 40 gives just about all the recoil the 45 has and the power of the 9mm on target not quite the combination I want.
Bret4207
At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
I will take issue with anyone claiming you have to go to the 357 mag in a revolver to equal or surpass the 9mm. The 38 Special in a medium frame revolver and some small frames can do it easily. This issue has been beat to death a number of times in a number of places.
Other than that, I agree with Hawk.
Someone up the page mentioned that police depts were going to the 9mm. Yeah, 20 years ago they were. These days it's 40's and 45's, 357 Sigs and stuff like that. Yes, it's true it's easier to train a novice with a wimpy little 9mm shooting that god awful sub-sonic crap. It's also easier to teach a novice with a 38 K frame and mid range loads. But the spray and pray mentality prevails above all else, especially to generations of people who grew up watching TV shows where 150 rounds are exchanged between the GG and BG and flimsy card tables or sheetrock walls stop bullets. You gotta have multiple mags or you're dead meat out there...
Other than that, I agree with Hawk.
Someone up the page mentioned that police depts were going to the 9mm. Yeah, 20 years ago they were. These days it's 40's and 45's, 357 Sigs and stuff like that. Yes, it's true it's easier to train a novice with a wimpy little 9mm shooting that god awful sub-sonic crap. It's also easier to teach a novice with a 38 K frame and mid range loads. But the spray and pray mentality prevails above all else, especially to generations of people who grew up watching TV shows where 150 rounds are exchanged between the GG and BG and flimsy card tables or sheetrock walls stop bullets. You gotta have multiple mags or you're dead meat out there...
Bret4207
At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
There is a 357 auto round, several in fact. The most well known these days is the 357 Sig.
IME, using Glocks, the 40S=W has more recoil than the 45ACP/GAP. It also has more power than the 9mmP.
Winelover
North Central Arkansas
I qualify as an old fart.......and have a pistol in my pocket, everyday. From the time I rise, till night, when I retire.
The 45 ACP is too large/heavy/bulky for everyday carry. IMO........even the smallest platforms. I have had both knees replaced and they can still determine excess weight, down to a couple of ounces. I also detest SA firearms with safeties and exposed hammers, especially, for carry. Add in the fact that I'm a lefty, they tend not to be user friendly.
The 9 mm has the most carry-ability, without sacrificing potency. Winter months I opt for a semi. Warmer months, a five shot revolver, just so I can use snake loads for the first shot........I do live rural.
When out bow hunting, its a CA 44 SPL Bulldog. Frame wise, it's so close to a J-frame, it fits in the same holsters. However, the added 1" of barrel length requires extra deep pockets or a IWB holster.
The 45 ACP is too large/heavy/bulky for everyday carry. IMO........even the smallest platforms. I have had both knees replaced and they can still determine excess weight, down to a couple of ounces. I also detest SA firearms with safeties and exposed hammers, especially, for carry. Add in the fact that I'm a lefty, they tend not to be user friendly.
The 9 mm has the most carry-ability, without sacrificing potency. Winter months I opt for a semi. Warmer months, a five shot revolver, just so I can use snake loads for the first shot........I do live rural.
When out bow hunting, its a CA 44 SPL Bulldog. Frame wise, it's so close to a J-frame, it fits in the same holsters. However, the added 1" of barrel length requires extra deep pockets or a IWB holster.
Hawk
Well-Known Member
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Ian
Notorious member
...Or 230 gains at 850 fps. I figure that's splitting hairs, or figuring how many faeries can dance on the head of a pin. Most of the stuff being discussed here had 300-450 lb-ft of energy at the muzzle, with 9mm, 40, .357 Sig, and .45 ACP all being around 400 or less in normal loadings. Moral of the story is like I mentioned earlier, they all suck (or not) to essentially the same degree, so carry what gives you the warm fuzzies and suits your needs/situation. That's what I do, and won't make fun of anyone carrying a .380...... or a 10mm, if they have it when they need it and can use it effectively.
I tend to disagree with you about that, particularly since the observations of most of us on this thread agree with the OP that .40 S&W is a dying duck. A short 30 years ago, everyone was saying there would never be a shortage of .30-'06 or .45 ACP brass.
Well I'm perfectly happy with my 45 real cartridge though yes there is a 45 ACP Short and yes, that's a real cartridge also. What I don't need is a 40 unicorn.
What most champions of the 9 like to say is that 9 is every bit as potent as the 45 because these days they make much better, more effective bullets for it. What they refuse to admit is that they also make those same much better, more effective bullets for the 45. Oh and for the 40 unicorn too.
What most champions of the 9 like to say is that 9 is every bit as potent as the 45 because these days they make much better, more effective bullets for it. What they refuse to admit is that they also make those same much better, more effective bullets for the 45. Oh and for the 40 unicorn too.
Ian
Notorious member
Yes they do make those same, better bullets for the .45 ACP, difference is at 850 fps they don't work as well as the ones pushed to 1300 fps. I still like the .45 ACP because no matter the projectile choice it delivers a lot of mass and a .451" object which isn't dependent on acrobatics, petals opening, magic talons, denim or leather or even body armor stopping or impeding it, it just knocks the hell out of stuff. When you need "STOP" or "GET OFF ME", nothing does it like a big, slow, heavy bullet.
Dusty Bannister
Well-Known Member
is the 9mm gonna be the death of the 40 short?
This has been very interesting to watch the various positions be presented. Mostly short on fact, but long on demeaning comments about a particular cartridge. A lot like the Ford/Chevy/Mopar arguments and not unlike "my daddy can beat up your daddy".
I do not know that it really makes any difference who carries what considering the needs are so vastly different between an individual living in a metro area and one living in a rustic area likely to encounter big animals that are equal or higher on the food chain. We all have the choice of carrying what we are comfortable with and proficient with. Just as we are not all 6'2" and 240# we are not all obese nor skinny.
The tone of this thread was pretty well established as intended to demean the others choice of 40 over 9MM. This is fine if that is what is being discussed. But that old thread drift has been really a factor here. Now as to the original question, some of the agencies I am familiar with are going from 45 acp to 9MM and from 40 to 9MM and it is not a mater of superior ballistics. It is just plain old money driven decisions. The 9MM is cheaper to shoot, and that is driven by the budget. The rest is rhetoric.
This has been very interesting to watch the various positions be presented. Mostly short on fact, but long on demeaning comments about a particular cartridge. A lot like the Ford/Chevy/Mopar arguments and not unlike "my daddy can beat up your daddy".
I do not know that it really makes any difference who carries what considering the needs are so vastly different between an individual living in a metro area and one living in a rustic area likely to encounter big animals that are equal or higher on the food chain. We all have the choice of carrying what we are comfortable with and proficient with. Just as we are not all 6'2" and 240# we are not all obese nor skinny.
The tone of this thread was pretty well established as intended to demean the others choice of 40 over 9MM. This is fine if that is what is being discussed. But that old thread drift has been really a factor here. Now as to the original question, some of the agencies I am familiar with are going from 45 acp to 9MM and from 40 to 9MM and it is not a mater of superior ballistics. It is just plain old money driven decisions. The 9MM is cheaper to shoot, and that is driven by the budget. The rest is rhetoric.