is the 9mm gonna be the death of the 40 short?

[Brad]

Mine are strictly range use so stopping power isn't really an issue for me. I like the 45 but also appreciate the lead diet conscious 9mm. The 9mm also does recoil less so it is far easier for my wife to shoot.
In the end if one is really needed then any gun is better than none.

 

[Eutectic]

Short on fact is it?

A Marine sniper buddy of mine when I was in Texas (he still is) was a huge 9mm fan. He had every 'trick' HP factory load made I think! He asked if I'd bring some wet newspaper over to test/compare expansion. I brought over a container 24" deep already wet and another foot spare knowing 6" or 8" they'd be done... He had everything trick style made at the time I think. He liked the Federal load "Hydrashock?" All did mushroom pretty and .50" caliber plus about 6" deep! John was happy! I popped his bubble...... "This isn't real life John... Just like the magazine tests in gelatin." He looked at me. "How y'all think we should test them?" I smiled.... We went to his shop..... There was a pile of trash for the dump. An old fluorescent light fixture for 4 footers was there. We bent it over double.... "That's the car door." I laughed. "Got any old pants you don't want." John came back with some outdated polyester specials. We folded them over. So we re-shot the test. Sheet metal, then pants, them wet newspaper. Nothing got deeper than 4" into the paper! NOT ONE OF ANY BRAND MUSHROOMED! The best they could do was rivet a little flatter...... and fill with cavity with wet paper. The steel appeared to squash them closed some. I had a couple things along. My Smith model 19 snub (2 1/2") was loaded with 358156HP's at 1150 fps. Soft alloy about 10 bhn. These made 5"! I wouldn't call them mushrooms but they were a gnarly chunk about .45 caliber that would be effective.

I had a short 870 along. It had a 21" rifled barrel on it. I had been playing with some .735" round balls that actually took the rifling. They weighed nigh on 600 grains and were chugging along at 1400fps...... They were accurate (considering) with 1 1/2" 50 yard groups. They were murder from the bench! I shot one into our test....... It flung the sheet metal back at us with a 1 1/4" hole in it! John hollered... "Look at my pants!!" Steam was coming out the hole!!! We shot a second one........ It was a uniform instant replay of the first! "How deep y'all think that pumpkin ball went in?" "Let's see....maybe a foot" I said. Both ball were 19" deep! Both balls were .90" caliber and lost no weight!
"What they say is true then." John commented..... "What's that?" I said. "Short shotgun beats any handgun in a closeup fight!"
John still carries a butt ugly Glock these days...... But at least it's .45 caliber!!!

Pete

 

[Hawk]

truth is, I pretty much use everything I have.

I carry a full size .40 when I can wear a coat to cover it. We live in a metroplex where 5 or 6 shots may not be enough against 3 or more a$$holes that want to attack you and your wife, because they think you dissed them with a look they didn't like. This has actually happened to me.

.380 in a pocket holster when the temperature is 95-100 degrees and I'm wearing shorts and a sport shirt and not going to be in a questionable part of town.

6 shot Colt Detective Special in .38 SPL by my wife's side of the bed. Simple, fool proof and not subject to jam if she has somebody on her.

Full size 9MM and two full extra mags in the bathroom in case she needs to barricade in the bathroom (Safe room) and wait for the cops sometime when I'm not there.

A .357 Mag, a .44 Mag, a .40 S&W or a 10MM when going to the deer lease, depending on what I'm gonna do and how far into the woods I get from the truck. Usually a .40 in the truck for the road travel and one of the others when I get out of the truck (we have packs of big hogs and now black bears). I'm on blood thinners and can't really afford to be raked with claws or chewed on too much (I might not make it back to the truck).

Will the 9MM be the death of the 40 short? I don't care. I like the 40s power and available magazine count, have good boolit molds for them and thanks to my friends in LE, have a lifetime supply of brass. (They bring my LC 5.56 brass as well after a training exercise).

If we're ever together and you need help, I've got your back.
That's how I roll. How you roll is your own business.

 

[Rick]

I didn't take anything in this thread as demeaning any of the calibers, just folks expressing their likes and dislikes. Everyone has their own preferences and always have had, nothing wrong with that. Actually that's quite a good thing because if that weren't so we would have one gun in one caliber. I didn't take the OP or it's intent or tone of this thread to demean.

How I did take the intent of this thread is as a play on words to spark some conversation after the 45 Long Colt thread. 40 Short? Really? I'll stand by my posts and say again, no unicorn guns for me thanks. Now if others want a mythical 40 Short or a mythical Long Colt please feel free to search for it. Let us know how it goes and shoot whatever your comfortable with, even the unicorns.

 

[Brad]

Rick doesn't own a unicorn gun because he doesn't have the ceiling height for the mount.

 

[fiver]

it was a serious post.
I like to poke fun at the 40 S&W but I didn't start the thread just to do that.

it was a serious question, and my opinion is that the 40 has had it's fling for the most part and that the 100+ YO 9mm will step back in and replace the 40 as a/the L.E. sidearm.
generally once that happens the gun and ammo see's another resurgence.

the 45 might be in trouble also, I don't see a lot of the younger crowd carrying one or even shooting them at the range all that often, but then again when is the last time we seen a drum full of 2 cent apiece 38 special brass at the LGS.

 

[Ian]

I'm with Rick, thought it was a good topic with intelligent, thoughtful, honest replies with a good mixture of personal opinion (stated as so) and facts. Except for the unicorn part, I think the .40 Unicorn is useless as a handgun caliber, I mean just take a look at the FBI's ballistics studies on it.

 

[Brad]

If we all agreed life would be pretty boring.

 

[waco]

I have never fired a 40 cal handgun. Don't see a need to change that.

That makes two of us.....

 

[freebullet]

Have owned but dont own a 40 right now but would buy another. I find the most free brass in 9mil then 40 then 223. It just makes sense to have those around. They can come & go either way.

I don't see the 40 going away. Some very impressive loads for each caliber exist the 40 being no exception. In fact factory loads are available that eclipse 45 acp energy levels. When the po po here cap some fools they die but it's normally 8-16 shots hit'em. Hard to call it lame or short & weak after seeing the soft tissue damage it leaves behind.

It seems a few must not go anywhere or do much. I for one am happy to have access to guns of all sizes & that having mouse guns means I can carry even without a coat on my person most always.

Try as I might I never been able to conceal a shotgun in my pocket. It does no good in the truck, & freaks out housewives when you show up with a slug gun slung on yer back when your there to provide a service that shouldn't require a shotgun.

I've put finishing shots into deer more times than I'd care to admit to with the 9mil & never had it fail to perforate through&through. Didn't try shooting the shoulder though.(I don't even know the meaning of that one but wanted to use it)

Frontsight calls all handguns diminutive in stopping power. That's why their training includes firing a controlled pair, & training for failure to stop scenarios. The data supports a controlled pair being much more effective(even from small cals) at eeking out stopping power from a handgun when you must because it's run what ya bring time. What did you brung?

Guess I listened, kinda look at all handguns as not ideal for self defense. yep, I found the new ones.

 

[RicinYakima]

Hit the nail on the head, Dusty! In 1970 I had a choice of 158 RN lead, or 148 WC for my Model 15. I spent a whole shift's pay on a box of SuperVels. Carried the required six exposed reloads on my duty belt with 158 RN. Had three "Speed Strips" in my left front pocket with the SuperVels. Now as then, most line officers would rather have a new cruiser than a better weapon.

 

[Dusty Bannister]

What I find appalling is that some todays officers seem to have little knowledge of how their firearms function, and care little about finding out. They have an armorer to clean them when they are too lazy, they look upon quarterly qualifications with all the joy of another vasectomy, and I have seen one just standing there lost in conversation flipping the retaining strap on and off the handgun. Not very comforting.

To the point of the thread, todays departments seem to be doing their best to keep the officers armed with whatever weapons they can afford. They expend a lot of money on training so the officers will be able to go home at the end of the shift. And they have to make a compromise by providing the firearm that will be able to be used to qualify as many of their officers as possible. To get that trigger time, they have to cut expenses.

I am fortunate to have the opportunity to purchase the range brass from a LEO range shared by several agencies. Over the last 8 years I have seen the change from 357 SIG, the 45 ACP has come and gone with another agency, and the 38/357 is just barely represented as is the 380 acp. While the 9MM is most popular in handguns, the 40 is very well represented according to the brass buckets.

The 9MM will always be popular because of the cost factor. The 10MM is not even seen by these agencies. The 40 seems to be pretty stable at this time. There will always be an ebb and flow, but I would certainly not bet money which calibers are going to stay relevant, based upon an individual opinion. Survey the ranges and then we can talk about it. The one caliber that is nearly gone is the 45 GAP (Glock Auto Pistol). This one went fast, and perhaps the 357 SIG is to follow. It will be interesting to see what changes occur in the next 5 years.

 

[JonB]

well, I like the 40.
but I like the 9 also.
and I am fond of the 45auto...the 45colt is good too, but I don't own a 45colt at the moment, but my daughter does.

speaking of 45colt,
Today was a pretty good day, I'm continuing with my reloading room decluttering and I'm going through some boxes of brass and I find a bunch of 45colt brass...new stuff from starline. I don't remember buying it, 500 rds...that was nice.

 

[Bill]

When I bought my first press in 1972 it came as a kit, the salesman at southwest shooters supply asked, what caliber dies you want with this. I replied 30-30, then he said, why that caliber is going away probably won't be any around in ten years. Don't count any of them out yet

Bill

 

[Rally Hess]

I think the .40 will be less popular, but there will still be plenty around in my lifetime. I don't own one, but a lot of folks I know do. I prefer revolvers, but also own pistols. My pistols tend to stay in my vehicles, due to weight. I like my LCR .38 +p for CC.

JonB,
Good find

 

[462]

Years ago, my son-in-law told me he was getting ready to purchase a 9 mm handgun. I handed him a .45 ACP round and placed another next to a picture of a 9 mm (I didn’t, and don’t own anything chambered in 9 mm), then asked him which one he’d rather be shot with. He bought a full-size .45 ACP.

At the range, I see more empty .40 S&W brass than 9 mm.

I wonder: If it were not for NATO, what cartridge would our military and police be using?

 

[Bret4207]

375 not 357.

My bad, but what would it do any of the current rounds won't? Not much. Were talking .015 or so in diameter.

 

[Bret4207]

Hawk, load a Lyman 358156 out to the 2nd crimp groove and stoke it with 13.5 2400. This load is stock out of manuals from 15-20 years back and will run about 1200 fps from a 4" barrel. It's a 357 mag out of 38 Special brass. There are dozens of others out there too. If you want to do apples to apples, take a 38 and use 124's in the same as the 9, or better yet, try and get your 9 to push a 160 bullet at 1200. There isn't a lot of differnece between the 9 and 38 except if you stick to strictly factory loads.

 

[Bret4207]

The one caliber that is nearly gone is the 45 GAP (Glock Auto Pistol). This one went fast..

Standard sidearm of the NYSP. So there's about 5K of them that aren't going anywhere soon. Chosen over the 9mm because of people not dropping when hit solidly and NYSP members getting shot in return. Chosen over the 40 because it had less felt recoil and over the 45ACP because of the smaller grip circumference to satisfy the needs of the midgets and girly boys we were getting on the job. I was one of the testers.

 

[Bret4207]

I've put finishing shots into deer more times than I'd care to admit to with the 9mil & never had it fail to perforate through&through. Didn't try shooting the shoulder though.(I don't even know the meaning of that one but wanted to use it)

I have shot a LOT of car struck deer. 99.9% were head shots. I have had the sub sonic 9mm 147 FBI load fail to even penetrate the frontal plate of the skull. I've had the Gold Dot 124+P+ slide along the skull under the skin, but only once or twice. We had a female Trooper who used body shots (couldn't "look Bambi in the eye and shoot her!"). She regularly used 8-10 rounds of 9mm to drop a deer and then it layed there flopping around on the side of the road. I have never seen a through and through body shot with a 9mm handgun of any persuasion on body shots and rarely on frontal head shots. Not saying it doesn't happen, just I've rarely seen it in 150-175 deer I personally shot with a 9mm.