fiver
Well-Known Member
LEE?
[laughing to myself]
did you know that 4 swings with a metal stool will not fully dislodge one of their auto-matic presses from a reloading bench?
you have to put the boot heel to it to get it the rest of the way off.
that speaks highly of their err of ACE hardware's lag bolts...
[laughing to myself]
did you know that 4 swings with a metal stool will not fully dislodge one of their auto-matic presses from a reloading bench?
you have to put the boot heel to it to get it the rest of the way off.
that speaks highly of their err of ACE hardware's lag bolts...
Talking LEE reloading tools and LEE casting equipment is two different animals. Apples and oranges.
.
fiver
Well-Known Member
hey... I didn't have anything bad to say about lee molds.
I only have 2 and one is on loan.
my 20 lb casting pot has lasted since the early 90's and was used to melt down ww's in when I first got it,
and I still use it to cast my 22 boolits so it's doing fine.
I could tell you about the 223 size die that kept coming back to haunt me till I finally threw it in the black canyon, but I'm sure you've heard it before.
I only have 2 and one is on loan.
my 20 lb casting pot has lasted since the early 90's and was used to melt down ww's in when I first got it,
and I still use it to cast my 22 boolits so it's doing fine.
I could tell you about the 223 size die that kept coming back to haunt me till I finally threw it in the black canyon, but I'm sure you've heard it before.
Ian
Notorious member
Go dig it out of the trash and I'll give you $20 for it on top of freight. If you have any moulds you want to get rid of, let's talk. I'm serious.
RBHarter
West Central AR
It's funny, guys tell you about how bad Lee moulds are ,"I tossed this 1 or that one" , " I got a box full ,won't use them" etc , but do ya think they will turn loose of them ? No, they never do........
As to tools , sizers generally speaking ,are over sized or maybe I've been lucky or my measuring tools are off . I got no kick with the dies either unless I have to form brass. Up isn't a problem but down the vents score the neck/shoulder form like making 358 Win from x57 or 222 from 223. The 45 ACP FCD is great for sizing the Rosschester 92' Colts brass with its guts out of course.
I personally don't care for the handle shape and the non cam over of the presses . Then again I don't care for the feel of Proto end wrenches ,the round Craftsman ratchets or Snap on breaker bars . So I guess that's jus a personal thing. By the same measure I wouldn't take a reamer in a drill press to a Sinclair seat and crimp die to make happy paper patch ammo for a fat chamber either .
How many of us would take a 358-200 FP Lee die and cut the gas check step out of both holes on the drill press but buy a 2nd RCBS and send it to "Eric" or a mixed NOE ? Why ? Because for 20 bucks we can afford ruin 1if it doesn't work but not $70......
If 2 tools do the same job and are wear out tools and 1 costs 1/3 of the other but has only 1/2 the life span then in the end you get 150% out of the cheaper tool for the same money. Unless the more expensive tool saves you saves 25% of the time or produces a 25% better product it never catches up with the cheaper tool.
Here's where my complaint about the vent in the dies comes in . If I have to make every 358 Win case from x57 or 06' I need to have an RCBS (chosen because past life says they don't scar necks and shoulders when forming) but if 90% is just neck up and a bump from 308 who cares ? 257 Roberts, definitely spent the extra money because every case made is a neck down. The same with 222. Why because the the $35 die set makes a better case than the $27 set and while the collet neck sizer might be nice that requires me to step up to the $40 set of Lee . Does it make 100 or 500 brass live $5 worth longer for adding the extra dies ? I don't know I loose more brass than I've blown out......
As to tools , sizers generally speaking ,are over sized or maybe I've been lucky or my measuring tools are off . I got no kick with the dies either unless I have to form brass. Up isn't a problem but down the vents score the neck/shoulder form like making 358 Win from x57 or 222 from 223. The 45 ACP FCD is great for sizing the Rosschester 92' Colts brass with its guts out of course.
I personally don't care for the handle shape and the non cam over of the presses . Then again I don't care for the feel of Proto end wrenches ,the round Craftsman ratchets or Snap on breaker bars . So I guess that's jus a personal thing. By the same measure I wouldn't take a reamer in a drill press to a Sinclair seat and crimp die to make happy paper patch ammo for a fat chamber either .
How many of us would take a 358-200 FP Lee die and cut the gas check step out of both holes on the drill press but buy a 2nd RCBS and send it to "Eric" or a mixed NOE ? Why ? Because for 20 bucks we can afford ruin 1if it doesn't work but not $70......
If 2 tools do the same job and are wear out tools and 1 costs 1/3 of the other but has only 1/2 the life span then in the end you get 150% out of the cheaper tool for the same money. Unless the more expensive tool saves you saves 25% of the time or produces a 25% better product it never catches up with the cheaper tool.
Here's where my complaint about the vent in the dies comes in . If I have to make every 358 Win case from x57 or 06' I need to have an RCBS (chosen because past life says they don't scar necks and shoulders when forming) but if 90% is just neck up and a bump from 308 who cares ? 257 Roberts, definitely spent the extra money because every case made is a neck down. The same with 222. Why because the the $35 die set makes a better case than the $27 set and while the collet neck sizer might be nice that requires me to step up to the $40 set of Lee . Does it make 100 or 500 brass live $5 worth longer for adding the extra dies ? I don't know I loose more brass than I've blown out......
Ian
Notorious member
Several years ago I offered a guy 80% of his money back on a Lee Pro-1000 press that he was cussing on-line. Said he never could get the priming system to work. I explained the index adjustment and he said he was just going to throw the whole think in a lake, which he actually did rather than make some of his loss back or learn a simple adjustment and maybe replace $10 worth of plastic parts that he'd buggared.
The only used Lee equipment I've been able to buy was a huge grab-bag of Pro-1000 stuff, like four or five presses, a dozen loaded shell plate carriers, a bunch of spare turrets, lots and lots of small parts, primer parts, measures, etc. All the stuff showed a good deal of wear from use, light corrosion from being probably used in a barn or unheated garage, but the funny thing was there were no broken parts, and the spare parts bags that came with the presses and powder measures when new were still unopened. The plastic primer covers were yellow from age and the trays had a lot of primer residue in them, no telling how many thousands of rounds all those presses had loaded and for how many years they'd lasted (by the designs, some of the presses were from the 80's), and it looked to me like they'd served their owner well as most of my Lee stuff has served me. I freshened up those presses, sold some of the extra parts here and there, and they still serve me today. Is it the best made and most foolproof stuff? No way. But it works.
The only used Lee equipment I've been able to buy was a huge grab-bag of Pro-1000 stuff, like four or five presses, a dozen loaded shell plate carriers, a bunch of spare turrets, lots and lots of small parts, primer parts, measures, etc. All the stuff showed a good deal of wear from use, light corrosion from being probably used in a barn or unheated garage, but the funny thing was there were no broken parts, and the spare parts bags that came with the presses and powder measures when new were still unopened. The plastic primer covers were yellow from age and the trays had a lot of primer residue in them, no telling how many thousands of rounds all those presses had loaded and for how many years they'd lasted (by the designs, some of the presses were from the 80's), and it looked to me like they'd served their owner well as most of my Lee stuff has served me. I freshened up those presses, sold some of the extra parts here and there, and they still serve me today. Is it the best made and most foolproof stuff? No way. But it works.
Lee still makes the best hand held priming tools. I long for the old, round style. The new one I have that is square needs a new cover. They redesigned it, again, but will replace it free when I send the old cover in. That said, I hate the Hornady priming tool I own. It has too many parts and the plastic cover broke early on. The handle pivot causes me trouble too. The Lee is cheaper, simpler, and just works.
I own many Lee dies and moulds. Their 6 cav moulds are the bomb. I miss the old Lee group buys in many ways. I don't miss the out of spec moulds from time to time but they can make a heap of bullets in a hurry. I did give away a grossly oversized 452-300 Lee mould the checks didn't fit on. Don't miss that mould one bit.
Each manufacturer has good and bad products the difference is that Lyman has changed designs so often without mould number that a guy isn't sure what he is gonna get.
I own many Lee dies and moulds. Their 6 cav moulds are the bomb. I miss the old Lee group buys in many ways. I don't miss the out of spec moulds from time to time but they can make a heap of bullets in a hurry. I did give away a grossly oversized 452-300 Lee mould the checks didn't fit on. Don't miss that mould one bit.
Each manufacturer has good and bad products the difference is that Lyman has changed designs so often without mould number that a guy isn't sure what he is gonna get.
One more thought, I get a phone call every few months from Al at NOE, I've heard of others who have this kind of relationship with Al. Al and I will talk for 15 to 20 minutes about new ideas he is about to venture off into or a new style of mould he is working on.
Al " stays in the loop " with cast bullet shooters. He listens. I'm not saying my opinion is important on anything. However , Al is smart and talks to and listens to A LOT OF CASTERS . He is a hard worker and puts in some very long days at NOE ( and I'm certain Tom at Accurate Moulds does also ! ).
Point is,.......... these guys want to know what shooters want and they make a concerted effort to produce what bullet casters are looking for. It is just smart business.
Lyman gives you what they want you to have , not necessarily what you want .
Quite a difference in business philosophy ..........
Ben
Al " stays in the loop " with cast bullet shooters. He listens. I'm not saying my opinion is important on anything. However , Al is smart and talks to and listens to A LOT OF CASTERS . He is a hard worker and puts in some very long days at NOE ( and I'm certain Tom at Accurate Moulds does also ! ).
Point is,.......... these guys want to know what shooters want and they make a concerted effort to produce what bullet casters are looking for. It is just smart business.
Lyman gives you what they want you to have , not necessarily what you want .
Quite a difference in business philosophy ..........
Ben
Last edited:
Al is a great mould maker but he gets business and reputation far more than anything. He stands behind his products. He wants happy customers. I don't own huge numbers of his moulds but if he has something I need I don't hesitate, I know what I'm getting.
Lyman is just a small part of a large corporation. They make stuff for the masses. Want exactly what you want? Then go custom. Not much more money but the quality is worth every penny.
Lyman is just a small part of a large corporation. They make stuff for the masses. Want exactly what you want? Then go custom. Not much more money but the quality is worth every penny.
Ian
Notorious member
I've logged a few calls with Al too, truly great guy. I told him his alignment pin system absolutely sucks and is in my experience worse than Lee's ever was, even on Lee's old-style two-bangers. I HOPE he's finally, after all these years, going to do something about that so the moulds actually open and close without having to fiddle-fart with them or grind on the chrome steel roller bearings he uses for pins. Make them tapered like every other mould maker in history has. That way they don't bind up and they don't wear funny so your bullets get out of round in short order. That has always been a deal-breaker for me with NOE. Not really a fan of the handle attachment screw design, either, but at least that part mostly worked. And make the sprue plates about 30% thicker, and look to MP, Lee, and LBT for some cool ideas on how to improve sprue plate and block face venting. Do all that and he'd be #1 in the universe of mould making, he's already built a superb company from nothing, may he live long and continue to prosper.
Ian,
Funny you'd mention that.
I had an NOE 2 cavity mould a couple of days ago that didn't want to open or close smoothly.
It was obviously the pins that were too tight.
Had to take some 600 paper and shine up the pins and corresponding holes in the other side of the blocks. A tiny drop of 2 cycle lube on both pins and I was back in business.
Ben
Funny you'd mention that.
I had an NOE 2 cavity mould a couple of days ago that didn't want to open or close smoothly.
It was obviously the pins that were too tight.
Had to take some 600 paper and shine up the pins and corresponding holes in the other side of the blocks. A tiny drop of 2 cycle lube on both pins and I was back in business.
Ben
Ian
Notorious member
Al told me to sand them a little. It takes more than that on a 4-cavity due to handle slop. Al even gave me a set of his handles to try to see if it would help the issues I was having, but it actually made it worse compared to Lee handles. So close to excellence...but. It's a basic engineering flaw, you cannot operate linear guides on an arc without bind or excess tolerance, it's as simple as that. Just turn a point on some steel rod like everyone else does, what's so difficult or expensive about that? I'd gladly pay an extra few dollars per mould for that. Lee does it now on their two-cavities, PLUS they cut some real vents in the TOP of their blocks and even engrave their logo and designation on them....and include handles....all for STILL $18. Why can't Al do that on the equivalent $79 mould? Make a product that I need and that works and I'll buy it, just ask Tom. Or Forster. Or Toyota Motor Company.
And on the handles, here's the big problem with those, easily remedied by either a trip to the hardware store or by buying two pairs of Lee handles for the same money and fixing them immediately with some Permatex Ultra Copper RTV silicone: The pivot bolt. NOE handles crunch and slop around then opening and closing, which exacerbates the binding problem of the mould pins and the misalignment and wear. Put a shoulder bolt in there so that the tongs aren't bearing on THREADS. Threads eat out the holes quickly and make the already bad problem worse. I fixed the set Al gave me by going to the hardware store and buying some Hillman bronze bushings, drilling the holes out, pressing the bushings in with some bearing mount adhesive, filing them flush, reaming with a chucking reamer and polishing up to bolt size and putting a shoulder bolt in there with a short stack of washers under the nut. Then I gave them to a friend of mine who had just started casting. In Al's defense he does at least pin the handles, so that part doesn't have to be remedied before the first use.
Yes, I'm passionate and opinionated on these things. I WANT AL TO SUCCEED. Tough love, buddy. I know a lot of people who won't say this sort of stuff in public because they're afraid of hurting feelings but grumble about some of the same things I do in private. It isn't just me. Many of the other companies don't care about their customers and won't stand behind their products. You never have that worry with NOE, and for so little the products could be so much greater. C'mon, Al, go that last 2%!
And on the handles, here's the big problem with those, easily remedied by either a trip to the hardware store or by buying two pairs of Lee handles for the same money and fixing them immediately with some Permatex Ultra Copper RTV silicone: The pivot bolt. NOE handles crunch and slop around then opening and closing, which exacerbates the binding problem of the mould pins and the misalignment and wear. Put a shoulder bolt in there so that the tongs aren't bearing on THREADS. Threads eat out the holes quickly and make the already bad problem worse. I fixed the set Al gave me by going to the hardware store and buying some Hillman bronze bushings, drilling the holes out, pressing the bushings in with some bearing mount adhesive, filing them flush, reaming with a chucking reamer and polishing up to bolt size and putting a shoulder bolt in there with a short stack of washers under the nut. Then I gave them to a friend of mine who had just started casting. In Al's defense he does at least pin the handles, so that part doesn't have to be remedied before the first use.
Yes, I'm passionate and opinionated on these things. I WANT AL TO SUCCEED. Tough love, buddy. I know a lot of people who won't say this sort of stuff in public because they're afraid of hurting feelings but grumble about some of the same things I do in private. It isn't just me. Many of the other companies don't care about their customers and won't stand behind their products. You never have that worry with NOE, and for so little the products could be so much greater. C'mon, Al, go that last 2%!
Last edited:
Ricochet
Member
I have several old Ideal moulds I "inherited" when I was starting out from an old caster friend nearing the end of his days, and they are fine. In 2000 I bought a new #457122HP and a new 2 holer #358429. They are fine, as is the #429244HP I bought new in 2008 when I realized they weren't offering them anymore and I searched till I found one in stock. (That's a design of sentimental importance to me, being the first cast bullet I ever saw, cast by my Uncle Don who hunted deer with them in his original S&W .44 Magnum.) They're all good moulds, but as has been said they've had changes from earlier designs with the same numbers, like the well known round grease groove in the Keith. I think from looking at lots of online pictures of #358429 that the nose shape has evolved over the years. I think something must have changed in the #429244, because the solid used to be a 250 grain bullet in #2 alloy, and my hollow points weigh 253 grains checked. I use a soft, denser, scrap alloy, but still that's a big hole in the nose. Maybe the check makes up the difference. Speaking of alloys, didn't Lyman change several years back from giving their bullet weights in #2 to linotype? Or am I hallucinating? That would affect as-cast diameters for sure. I haven't bought a mould from any of the new "custom" makers, and I'm well stocked with probably more bullet designs than I need for the calibers I load, but I did stumble across one the other day that I'd like, a clone of the old #429352 that I used to admire in old catalogs. I forget who makes it, but I can find it again I'm sure. One of the moulds I "inherited" is for the 160 grain #358432, and it is a great bullet in .38 Special!
fiver
Well-Known Member
the alignment pin issue.
yeah.
that was the first thing I had JT change on the HM-2 molds.
he sent me the proto-type of the first mold and I torture tested it about to tears.
50 lbs of lead through a 22 mold is a pile of bullets.
the alignment pins and the bushing were the weakest points in the system so we had to upgrade.
just recognizing that aluminum and steel have different expansion ratios and that on an arc a solid spud will not engage smoothly and eventually make a lop sided hole was the first hurdle.
another small thing many overlook is the amount f bolt sticking out the handles.
just making it long enough to sit flush with the bench when the mold is set down so it supports the handle weight and the mold don't tip over is another little thing that shows your paying attention.
yeah.
that was the first thing I had JT change on the HM-2 molds.
he sent me the proto-type of the first mold and I torture tested it about to tears.
50 lbs of lead through a 22 mold is a pile of bullets.
the alignment pins and the bushing were the weakest points in the system so we had to upgrade.
just recognizing that aluminum and steel have different expansion ratios and that on an arc a solid spud will not engage smoothly and eventually make a lop sided hole was the first hurdle.
another small thing many overlook is the amount f bolt sticking out the handles.
just making it long enough to sit flush with the bench when the mold is set down so it supports the handle weight and the mold don't tip over is another little thing that shows your paying attention.
Pistolero
Well-Known Member
I am very happy with many of my older Lyman molds, and so far - the relatively few molds that I have
purchased in the last decade or so of new stock, seem to be OK. Unfortunately, a couple of the most
recent purchases, 311299 and 314299 are sitting there brand new on the shelf, I think laughing at me
for spending money and not casting with them for at least a year and a half. When I do get around
to using them, I will report. They LOOK fine.
Newer production Keith designs from Lyman have gone back to square bottomed lube
grooves, Elmer would be pleased.
Bill
purchased in the last decade or so of new stock, seem to be OK. Unfortunately, a couple of the most
recent purchases, 311299 and 314299 are sitting there brand new on the shelf, I think laughing at me
for spending money and not casting with them for at least a year and a half. When I do get around
to using them, I will report. They LOOK fine.
Newer production Keith designs from Lyman have gone back to square bottomed lube
grooves, Elmer would be pleased.
Bill
KHornet
Well-Known Member
Just a bit off the beaten path here, but it seems right to add it here: A friend and I cast yesterday in my garage, and had a good old bull session while doing it. He started with my old Lyman single cav 358101 that casts a 75 gr. wadcutter that he wanted to load double with 38spec. (don't think it is made anymore). I casting with my 5 Cav NOE mold for the K31 Swiss. He was using a 20 lb Lee dripper, me with my RCBS 20 pounder. After he had about 100 of the little wad cutters, he switched to my Lee 6 Cav 22 that looks a whole lot like the RCBS. I emptied my pot twice, and got around 800 of so of the bullets for my Swiss, and he got probably 250-300 of the 22's. In the process, we cured the worries of the world, and other non important issues. A casting session like that for 2-3 hours is interesting, and if you haven't done it before with a friend, I would recommend it. As to Lyman molds, have many, and MOST are excellent, many are single cav, which while are slow to produce quantity, seem to be more precision made than the double cavs. All of the Ideals are great! What satisfies me, would in all probability not satisfy some others, but so be it!!!
358156 hp
At large, whereabouts unknown.
With Lyman, I tend to focus my purchases on the older Ideal moulds, or any of the "Lyman" marked moulds as long as they don't come in a plastic box. My success rate for buying moulds increased dramatically after I made that change. I've honestly ended up with defective, or at least disappointing moulds from practically every manufacturer. Everybody seems to have an issue or two every so often. LEE no longer needs to apply here though. I'll buy a few tools from them, but nothing beyond that.