PC bullets now allowed in CBA Competitions
- Thread starter RicinYakima
- Start date
I'm not a CBA member, but I don't see anything wrong with drawing a line at a specific level of technology to maintain the challenge, sort of like traditional muzzle-loading. I don't use bear fat for patch lube, but the idea of plastic sabots and propellant pellets doesn't do it for me at all.
Why not shoot in another class or create another game? At what point do "cast bullets" evolve to something beyond cast bullets? The PC coating is a significant step toward being "jacketed" (in a thin layer of "paint") with no exposed lead contacting the bore, and I've seen in my own limited use of PC that it's a tough "jacket" as well.
I'm not challenging anyone's ideas or position on this - just wondering out loud, as I am not involved in any organized recreation whatsoever. I'm pretty much asocial anyway and prefer to shoot by myself, so my perspective is obviously limited.
I've always been "behind the times" (even though I've made my living in technology) by others' standards, but until my beard went gray, I was just "different," which even fascinated some people. Now, I'm pegged as a cranky old guy who can't keep up with the world. I've found things in life that I like, and intend to continue to enjoy them, whether they are "outdated" or not. I've stuck with the same woman now for going on 45 years! I don't think SHE thinks I'm just too old to appreciate "change." In other words, I don't see resistance to change as necessarily a bad thing, depending on what it's about.
Not arguing either side of this. Just wondering out loud.
Michael
Active Member. Uh/What
Oh goodie. .......sounds like the slippery road of "production" class in IHMSA.
PC has it's place, and I do shoot some PC bullets. But in my mind real cast bullets are naked with a little lube only where it belongs.
In competition, PC is the lazy way out, for those who want to buy a better score (see above) rather than accept the challenges of casting good bullets and finding a good load. At the risk of ruffling even more feathers, kinda like winning Quigley, etc., using 5744 or 2400 vs Fg or FFg.
Maybe the next rule change will be to permit Cu-Zn coated lead/cast bullets.
PC has it's place, and I do shoot some PC bullets. But in my mind real cast bullets are naked with a little lube only where it belongs.
In competition, PC is the lazy way out, for those who want to buy a better score (see above) rather than accept the challenges of casting good bullets and finding a good load. At the risk of ruffling even more feathers, kinda like winning Quigley, etc., using 5744 or 2400 vs Fg or FFg.
Maybe the next rule change will be to permit Cu-Zn coated lead/cast bullets.
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Ian
Notorious member
Powder coating is many things but I wouldn't agree that it's the lazy way to match-winning cast bullet accuracy.
I have no problem with sanctioning it any more than I do with the common practice of swaging cast bullets for fit and uniformity. It all takes work and a lot of experience to get right, but not a lot of money. Ask Ric how well he did the few times he tried PC'd bullets in his rifles and whether he'd try it in a match or not.
I never asked, but is paper patching allowed in any of the classes of CBA competition? That's about the best cheap and effective accuracy there is once you get dialed in on the process.
My comment about unlimited class was meant to point out that there IS a place MEANT for the innovative, the obsessive, and the wealthy to further the craft and that's the place PC should naturally be allowed even if it becomes so standard among winners that the losers bitch enough to get it banned in some classes. My own opinion is that if PC becomes the new standard in any class (just like nose-bumping, Line-o-type alloy, and LBT bullet lube have), then get with the program or don't win. Leave tradition to those who think that smokeless powder, fixed ammunition, and gas checks are nothing more than a passing fad.
I have no problem with sanctioning it any more than I do with the common practice of swaging cast bullets for fit and uniformity. It all takes work and a lot of experience to get right, but not a lot of money. Ask Ric how well he did the few times he tried PC'd bullets in his rifles and whether he'd try it in a match or not.
I never asked, but is paper patching allowed in any of the classes of CBA competition? That's about the best cheap and effective accuracy there is once you get dialed in on the process.
My comment about unlimited class was meant to point out that there IS a place MEANT for the innovative, the obsessive, and the wealthy to further the craft and that's the place PC should naturally be allowed even if it becomes so standard among winners that the losers bitch enough to get it banned in some classes. My own opinion is that if PC becomes the new standard in any class (just like nose-bumping, Line-o-type alloy, and LBT bullet lube have), then get with the program or don't win. Leave tradition to those who think that smokeless powder, fixed ammunition, and gas checks are nothing more than a passing fad.
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fiver
Well-Known Member
the good thing about it is maybe some younger guys will give the CBA a shot.
if i showed up i'd have to bring naked bullets, i haven't cracked the code fully with PC yet.
it works and it's fine, i just haven't cracked the tiny group code yet, not sayin i can't or won't if i put in the effort.
i just haven't done either yet.
and i may not just pissin around with stuff i've spent the time, effort, and money on getting them to work naked.
maybe some focus and measuring and having a couple of molds cut [shrug] to go another direction would get me there.
but why? there's the tiny little holes right next to each other already.
if i showed up i'd have to bring naked bullets, i haven't cracked the code fully with PC yet.
it works and it's fine, i just haven't cracked the tiny group code yet, not sayin i can't or won't if i put in the effort.
i just haven't done either yet.
and i may not just pissin around with stuff i've spent the time, effort, and money on getting them to work naked.
maybe some focus and measuring and having a couple of molds cut [shrug] to go another direction would get me there.
but why? there's the tiny little holes right next to each other already.
RicinYakima
High Steppes of Eastern Washington
Since Ian asked, I have have good, but not match winning results, with PC bullets. It is a personal thing, I have not too many years left, not that much money and time left. It is a technology for the future, that doesn't include me.
Spindrift
Well-Known Member
There is no CBA, or cast bullet rifle matches here in Norway. And if there was, I probably woulldn’t enter, since I don’t have a competitive fibre in my body. To me, going to the range is almost meditative. I go to the range at times where I usually have the range to myself. I shoot a little, sip a little coffee, ponder over some targets. And when I return home, it is with a feeling of.... catharsis. If I brought any frustration to the range, it is left there.
But I’ve asked myself; if I was to enter a competition, which load would I choose?
I honestly don’t know. My loading practice is governed by the voracious appetite of my guns. I tend to avoid time-consuming refinery in the reloading room that does not demonstrate clear advantages on the target. If I reach close to 1MOA accuracy for 5 shots at 100m, I consider the job well done, and pat my back. I’ve reached this goal with lubed PB, lubed GC, PC/GC and PC/PB loads.
I would probably bring some coated PB bullets, just for the fun of it.
But I’ve asked myself; if I was to enter a competition, which load would I choose?
I honestly don’t know. My loading practice is governed by the voracious appetite of my guns. I tend to avoid time-consuming refinery in the reloading room that does not demonstrate clear advantages on the target. If I reach close to 1MOA accuracy for 5 shots at 100m, I consider the job well done, and pat my back. I’ve reached this goal with lubed PB, lubed GC, PC/GC and PC/PB loads.
I would probably bring some coated PB bullets, just for the fun of it.
Bret4207
At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
It's not nostalgia or curmudgeon-ness. It's changing what was accepted to something else, no more, no less. We see the same thing across the spectrum in our society. I have nothing against PCing, know very little about it and do not consider myself capable of competing in any kind of match anymore. But for many decades a cast bullet was what we knew it as. Now they come coated in plastic. Is it still the same? I don't think so. I agree with those advising creating a different class for PC. Just as Schuetzen shooting should be done with PB bullets, standing up on your hind legs, there should be rules and regulations breaking the whole mess up. As someone said, next we could allow gilding metal coated cast bullets!
It's not about stopping progress as a certain point, it's about fair competition among people falling under the same rules and restrictions for equipment. Do I need to bring male athletes competing on female teams up as an example? 'Nuff said.
It's not about stopping progress as a certain point, it's about fair competition among people falling under the same rules and restrictions for equipment. Do I need to bring male athletes competing on female teams up as an example? 'Nuff said.
Not sure I agree entirely Bret.
A PC bullet is still cast, not swaged. If you want to get picky is a bullet with a nose formed in a bump die still a cast bullet? Where do we draw the line?
It Is the CAST bullet association, not the greased/waxed bullet association.
Powder coat/ Hi-Tek coated bullets are a major move forward. I understand they aren’t for everyone. I can remember some of the early discussion I saw online about using epoxy paint or powder coating and thinking “what a bunch of morons”. Then I decided to try it based on the experience of some people I trust. All of my handgun bullets are PC now. I do not miss the sticky bullets, gooey seating dies, or the greasy mess left on my handguns.
A PC bullet is still cast, not swaged. If you want to get picky is a bullet with a nose formed in a bump die still a cast bullet? Where do we draw the line?
It Is the CAST bullet association, not the greased/waxed bullet association.
Powder coat/ Hi-Tek coated bullets are a major move forward. I understand they aren’t for everyone. I can remember some of the early discussion I saw online about using epoxy paint or powder coating and thinking “what a bunch of morons”. Then I decided to try it based on the experience of some people I trust. All of my handgun bullets are PC now. I do not miss the sticky bullets, gooey seating dies, or the greasy mess left on my handguns.
Joshua
Taco Aficionado/Salish Sea Pirate/Part-Time Dragon
It seems to me that the CBA could learn a thing or two from the professional tennis world. They play on grass, clay, and hard courts. It’s all tennis.
There is an old song that goes like this, “You spell rackets, I spell racquets, tomato taaamato, let’s call the whole thing off!” People can’t even decide on common spellings of words in the English language!!! What makes it even funnier is that the Brits spell racquet the French way. Ha! They hate the French!
What we all need to be fighting about is the proper spelling of the word mould/mold!!!
There is an old song that goes like this, “You spell rackets, I spell racquets, tomato taaamato, let’s call the whole thing off!” People can’t even decide on common spellings of words in the English language!!! What makes it even funnier is that the Brits spell racquet the French way. Ha! They hate the French!
What we all need to be fighting about is the proper spelling of the word mould/mold!!!
I don't disagree with much of anything I've read here, but I also feel that people have tended to wad history up and throw it away every time the next new thing comes along. Preservation of the technology which got us to where we are is important too. I work with a lot of younger people who think they're smarter than all the older people because they can tweet and morph photos of their friends into vampires and clowns with an "app," without recognizing that these "old people" pioneered the general and common use of computers, when none of it was that easy.
Technology and advancement is all well and good - and I'm happy to take advantage of it, but the vast majority of the computing power in just a phone these days isn't used by or for the benefit of the USER. It is under-utilized and mis-utilized. Cast bullets aren't putting food on my table, saving sick babies or keeping despots at bay. I don't see anything wrong with drawing a line at some historical point to enhance the challenge - to see if we can better our forebears, using what they had to work with. I may be WAY off base, but I've always seen the CBA as similar to the NMLRA.
Once popular BPCR silhouette shooting and cowboy-action shooting seemed to have similar rules which set limits - challenges - to do something with less gear, technology and money, but I'm sure they did eventually evolve to where scheming to win was more important to some people than the spirit of the endeavor. A museum curator is not simply "stuck in the past" or "resistant to change."
Again, I'm not a member, being more like what @Spindrift describes as his own philosophy on competition, so "my vote" doesn't count, but in a more general way, I prefer to see the preservation of history and challenging ourselves to work within the confines of a certain level. I personally take great pride in being able to start a fire with a bow drill, but I don't carry a bow drill in my kits - I carry stuff that will make a fire under the worst of conditions, which involved technology.
Not being a competitive person, I will obviously not be able to appreciate the objective of winning. Advancement is fine too, but I also believe there is a lot of benefit in challenging ourselves with limitations, especially as it applies to maintaining a clear view of how we got to where we are.
Technology and advancement is all well and good - and I'm happy to take advantage of it, but the vast majority of the computing power in just a phone these days isn't used by or for the benefit of the USER. It is under-utilized and mis-utilized. Cast bullets aren't putting food on my table, saving sick babies or keeping despots at bay. I don't see anything wrong with drawing a line at some historical point to enhance the challenge - to see if we can better our forebears, using what they had to work with. I may be WAY off base, but I've always seen the CBA as similar to the NMLRA.
Once popular BPCR silhouette shooting and cowboy-action shooting seemed to have similar rules which set limits - challenges - to do something with less gear, technology and money, but I'm sure they did eventually evolve to where scheming to win was more important to some people than the spirit of the endeavor. A museum curator is not simply "stuck in the past" or "resistant to change."
Again, I'm not a member, being more like what @Spindrift describes as his own philosophy on competition, so "my vote" doesn't count, but in a more general way, I prefer to see the preservation of history and challenging ourselves to work within the confines of a certain level. I personally take great pride in being able to start a fire with a bow drill, but I don't carry a bow drill in my kits - I carry stuff that will make a fire under the worst of conditions, which involved technology.
Not being a competitive person, I will obviously not be able to appreciate the objective of winning. Advancement is fine too, but I also believe there is a lot of benefit in challenging ourselves with limitations, especially as it applies to maintaining a clear view of how we got to where we are.
Snakeoil
Well-Known Member
I don't have a dog in this race, but I was wondering the same thing. I'm not a member of the CBA (probably should be, but I get enough magazines) so have to ask, are they about preserving the sport of shooting cast bullets in competition or are they about advancing the sport of shooting cast bullets in competition? If it is the latter, then I guess anything goes as long as it has a chewy lead center and does not bump up against the metal jacket rule. Think someone will come up with a Teflon jacket that is as precision as a Berger match bullet? That would be the next logical step for someone that would prefer to win by any means.
We have at least one guy at Wilton that shoots PC bullets out of a Tikka .308 with a Vortex scope. He does well, but not great given the quality of his equipment. He is often beat by others shooting plain cast bullets out of vintage military rifles like 03's and Enfields as well as a number of single shots using vintage scopes and sometime iron sights.
My personal opinion is the org should be about preserving the sport as it was 100 years ago and working within the material limitations that existed back then. When someone sets a record using the old rules and that record is then broken by someone using an improved, modern feature, is the old record really broken? I don't see this as a technology race like motorsports where the latest and greatest wins the day and track lap records are beaten by technology rather than driver skills. I would prefer to see the CBA stay the course and let the records be set buy making the best cast bullet with the best lube shot out of the best barrel by the finest shooter who can read the conditions better than the rest. That shooter just accomplished something. And one could possibly argue that a modern barrel might be pushing the rules.
If you go back to the motorsports analogy, you could probably take a 12 year old kid in a Honda mini-van and put him up against a champion driver from the 1920's in a 1920's racecar and let them run against each other on a road course like Poconos. I'm pretty sure that kid would mop the floor with the champion. Does that mean the kid was better or that he just had better equipment?
Just sayin'....
I originally thought the rule was to prevent cheating, swaged bullets/plated bullets/jacketed bullets hidden under a plastic coating. Remembering the auto guys that had special measuring 'tools'/'tricks'. And I won't mention names. Now they have profile gauges to make sure the auto envelope is correct.
quicksylver
Well-Known Member
do they and if so when did they allow gas checks?
RicinYakima
High Steppes of Eastern Washington
Gas checks of less the 1/10" height have always been allowed except in "plain base". Just like Schutzen forbid gas checks since 1904.
Teflon, moly and many other coatings have been used, but not successfully. PC is is getting good results and will get better as time goes by. Will it replace grease lubes? Hang on and we will see. That is why the rule change, open up the matches for experimenters.
You want traditional, shoot Schutzen.
Remember that Pope's best 30 caliber group, reprinted in many books, would not get you in the top three in todays CBA matches.
Bret4207
At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
Which is why I said create different classes with the overall game. I'd rather see the lines drawn and those interested in continuing the pursuit of the cast/traditional lubed bullets, both PB and GC, continue and not be lost to, "Well heck, PCing is easier and shoots better!" Why not just go to jacketed then and make it real easy?
To each their own, I haven't belonged to CBA in years. None of my business I suppose.
Bret4207
At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
When I was doing family genealogy I found an article about a grandfather who set some sort of record at a big Sheutzen match back in the 1880's-90's. The cut of the target was a group that could be measured with a yard stick. Now, true, that was shot standing at (IIRC) 220 yards, but still! We've come a long way. I don't think we should forget that and the years it took to get here. That's my concern, that what came before will be forgotten and even ridiculed.