Possibly the BEST plain base .30 cal. bullet out there
- Thread starter Ben
- Start date
Ian
Notorious member
Try air-cooled and see what happens. Heat-treated 50/50 isn't needed for much of any kind of shooting until you get way up there in velocity, 2,000 to 2,500 fps and over 40K peak PSI.
2400 is also something to try. Fiver was talking about this a little while ago in another thread regarding filler, powder position sensitivity, and load workups. 2400 is very position sensitive in large cases and can be very erratic until a certain pressure point in the system is reached. With a light bullet cast of an alloy which engraves easily and presumably using light neck tension and no crimp, 2400 may need some help with a little Dacron to burn consistently until you get into "needing gas check" speeds/pressures. Dacron, if used "properly", is more than a powder positioning device; it can "fool" the powder into thinking it is in a smaller case than it actually is, can act as a pillow against the bullet base to stop gas-cutting, gas leaks, and help protect the bullet base for a few critical milliseconds until the bullet is pushed safely into the throat. I often use Dacron with my "plinker" loads in .30-30 and .30-'06 even with Unique powder because I see so many benefits (reduced throat leading, better accuracy, cleaner chamber necks), especially with very lightweight, plain-based bullets. Dacron is a pain to use but sometimes it really helps if you need to employ a relatively slow-burning powder in a situation where it normally wouldn't be making enough pressure to burn completely or correctly. How hard you seat the bullet against the throat or let it jump also affects the burn curve. Seating the bullet to touch something is probably where you want to be with 2400, but not so much with Unique.....most of the time with systems like the one you have here. Only experimenting with your particular collection of stuff will tell you for sure.
Notice that Ben doesn't use Dacron much if at all with his target loads. Also note that he uses medium-burn-rate pistol/shotgun powders and usually uses an alloy like air-cooled clip-on WW plus 2% tin. This combination is well-balanced for a lot different cartridges and rifles within the velocity and pressure window he typically uses. This balance is one of the main reasons why he is able to get very good groups. If he were to switch to something like 3031 he would be fighting ignition problems and have to bump the velocity, pressure, alloy strength, add some neck tension, maybe add some crimp, maybe use a filler or even a buffer, etc. If he were to use a tougher alloy, he might have to again bump the pressure and tinker with the pressure curve (different powder burn rates) to get the same launch dynamic and accuracy back again.
2400 is also something to try. Fiver was talking about this a little while ago in another thread regarding filler, powder position sensitivity, and load workups. 2400 is very position sensitive in large cases and can be very erratic until a certain pressure point in the system is reached. With a light bullet cast of an alloy which engraves easily and presumably using light neck tension and no crimp, 2400 may need some help with a little Dacron to burn consistently until you get into "needing gas check" speeds/pressures. Dacron, if used "properly", is more than a powder positioning device; it can "fool" the powder into thinking it is in a smaller case than it actually is, can act as a pillow against the bullet base to stop gas-cutting, gas leaks, and help protect the bullet base for a few critical milliseconds until the bullet is pushed safely into the throat. I often use Dacron with my "plinker" loads in .30-30 and .30-'06 even with Unique powder because I see so many benefits (reduced throat leading, better accuracy, cleaner chamber necks), especially with very lightweight, plain-based bullets. Dacron is a pain to use but sometimes it really helps if you need to employ a relatively slow-burning powder in a situation where it normally wouldn't be making enough pressure to burn completely or correctly. How hard you seat the bullet against the throat or let it jump also affects the burn curve. Seating the bullet to touch something is probably where you want to be with 2400, but not so much with Unique.....most of the time with systems like the one you have here. Only experimenting with your particular collection of stuff will tell you for sure.
Notice that Ben doesn't use Dacron much if at all with his target loads. Also note that he uses medium-burn-rate pistol/shotgun powders and usually uses an alloy like air-cooled clip-on WW plus 2% tin. This combination is well-balanced for a lot different cartridges and rifles within the velocity and pressure window he typically uses. This balance is one of the main reasons why he is able to get very good groups. If he were to switch to something like 3031 he would be fighting ignition problems and have to bump the velocity, pressure, alloy strength, add some neck tension, maybe add some crimp, maybe use a filler or even a buffer, etc. If he were to use a tougher alloy, he might have to again bump the pressure and tinker with the pressure curve (different powder burn rates) to get the same launch dynamic and accuracy back again.
JWFilips
Well-Known Member
Reed,
We here all have are own way of shooting. I for one have jumped on the Band wagon that Ben had started with light loads and plain base bullets in rifles for my of my shooting enjoyment. That said I still shoot harder cast, Gas Checked bullets at 2000 fps range in my .243 Win and My .223 Rem because I haven't been able to get good accuracy by slowing them down with plain base bullets and light loads. So If they are sub .30 caliber for me that means gas checks and faster speed. Those caliber always seem to move fast.
However 30, 8 mm and 358 calibers shoot very well with plain base bullets and amazingly with 8.0 grain American Select; or 7 grains Red Dot or 9 grains of Green dot or 10 grains of Unique ....on average; I have found. For me it isn't hard to shoot good groups with Ben's methods if you are killing paper ( which is all I kill) And if you are up the in the 8 mm and 358 caliber class with heavy bullets I'm sure you can kill Elk with those light loads and heavy bullets! This method bring good success and satisfaction.
Once you start moving bullets up 2000 fps or more it is a greater challenge. That is when You need experts in that area Such as Ian, Fiver and a few others here!
I never feel a thread is hijacked if We are all learning stuff!
In reality we could just start one thread and incorporate everything we all have found out over the years and it would be the best darn thread ever!
Maybe we could get in to the Guiness book of records!
Jim
We here all have are own way of shooting. I for one have jumped on the Band wagon that Ben had started with light loads and plain base bullets in rifles for my of my shooting enjoyment. That said I still shoot harder cast, Gas Checked bullets at 2000 fps range in my .243 Win and My .223 Rem because I haven't been able to get good accuracy by slowing them down with plain base bullets and light loads. So If they are sub .30 caliber for me that means gas checks and faster speed. Those caliber always seem to move fast.
However 30, 8 mm and 358 calibers shoot very well with plain base bullets and amazingly with 8.0 grain American Select; or 7 grains Red Dot or 9 grains of Green dot or 10 grains of Unique ....on average; I have found. For me it isn't hard to shoot good groups with Ben's methods if you are killing paper ( which is all I kill) And if you are up the in the 8 mm and 358 caliber class with heavy bullets I'm sure you can kill Elk with those light loads and heavy bullets! This method bring good success and satisfaction.
Once you start moving bullets up 2000 fps or more it is a greater challenge. That is when You need experts in that area Such as Ian, Fiver and a few others here!
I never feel a thread is hijacked if We are all learning stuff!
In reality we could just start one thread and incorporate everything we all have found out over the years and it would be the best darn thread ever!
Maybe we could get in to the Guiness book of records!
Jim
Lee collet die won't do it. M die doesn't really either.
An RCBS, Redding, or Forster bushing die will. It uses a small, interchangeable bushing to determine the external neck diameter. By sizing the neck only part of the way down you can leave the remainder of the neck at the as fired diameter. This helps keep the neck centered in the chamber.
Using a die to bell the case mouth can work too. Just don't remove the belling any more than required to chamber the round. The larger neck keeps the case centered better in the chamber.
An RCBS, Redding, or Forster bushing die will. It uses a small, interchangeable bushing to determine the external neck diameter. By sizing the neck only part of the way down you can leave the remainder of the neck at the as fired diameter. This helps keep the neck centered in the chamber.
Using a die to bell the case mouth can work too. Just don't remove the belling any more than required to chamber the round. The larger neck keeps the case centered better in the chamber.
Best of all the bushing can be used to reduce over sizing of the neck. You can now control the amount of neck tension. I prefer to remove the internal neck expander and use something like an M die to put a little bell on the neck to prevent shaving the bullet.
Reed
Active Member
Jim, it sounds like I need to tame my "need for speed." I'm seeing a lot of the Lyman 45 cast load philosophy here in this forum, at least for PB bullets. Lots of load recommendations using pistol/shotgun powders (although they were GC'ing everything). I guess those old boys were on to something.
Reed
Eutectic
Active Member
Nice group Ben!
That is a couple times now I've seen a picture of that 31-175BP.... Each time it has taken me back to my youth! This time I went to Accurate and looked at a drawing... I can see why it shoots! Harry Pope himself had such a design when cast plain base was still king!
A couple of years after the war (that's WW2) I remember my father ordering a mould from Lyman in Middlefield CT. I even remember him buying a money order for $6.00 for it which included shipping! It was for 308403.......
Here's the cavity. Note my father's scribe lines for venting in these early blocks.
(What looks like lead by the alignment pin hole is from the box.)
My father told an interested kid (me) that the bullet was tapered... I said "tapered?"
"Well he said.... "Each band gets larger from front to back.... So it can go into the lands a ways." Later I would know what he meant.
It didn't shoot well in the beginning in his double heat-treat '03 Springfield. My Dad thought the base band cast too big. (I think it casts .315"?) So he sized it to .309". Does this sound familiar Ian??
Dad started with Unique but soon changed to 2400. 12 grains.... This interested young kid asked Dad why..... "Know those bullets you dug out of the backstop?" I nodded. "I saw gas cutting on the base band so I changed powder to a slower one." I nodded like I understood (and did later)
We always shot 200 yards... Even now I can reminisce the .22 rimfire like crack, then the pause, then the 'slap' on the thick military type elevating targets!
Dad won a lot of events at the range using that load usually again other '06 rifles as the club got G.I. ammo from the DCM for military qualification courses. Dad was winning with that soft plain based bullet at 200 yards against full power jacketed .30-06!!
I sent a Winchester Model 94 barrel to a fella named Ward Koozer in Oregon to rebore to .38-55.... About 1959 or '60..... I remember talks later about my Dad's target rifle in the '30's after I showed him a cast round for my 'new' .38-55 ... Dad had a Winchester Hi-Wall .38-55 with a 28" octagon barrel! We talked about the "Hudson bullet".... This was an early Lyman bullet for .38-55 with bands increasing in diameter towards the base like the Pope bullet..... He told me his mould was for the standard Lyman bullet but the Hi-Wall throat allowed him to seat out a "couple lube grooves" from the case.
My Dad sold that .38-55 Hi-Wall and a Colt Single Action Army .44-40 that he bought new in 1935! Money for my Mom when he went into WW2.
My Dad taught me to cast and reload when I was still single digits! Must be why some think me 'old fashioned'!!
Pete
That is a couple times now I've seen a picture of that 31-175BP.... Each time it has taken me back to my youth! This time I went to Accurate and looked at a drawing... I can see why it shoots! Harry Pope himself had such a design when cast plain base was still king!
A couple of years after the war (that's WW2) I remember my father ordering a mould from Lyman in Middlefield CT. I even remember him buying a money order for $6.00 for it which included shipping! It was for 308403.......
Here's the cavity. Note my father's scribe lines for venting in these early blocks.
(What looks like lead by the alignment pin hole is from the box.)
My father told an interested kid (me) that the bullet was tapered... I said "tapered?"
"Well he said.... "Each band gets larger from front to back.... So it can go into the lands a ways." Later I would know what he meant.
It didn't shoot well in the beginning in his double heat-treat '03 Springfield. My Dad thought the base band cast too big. (I think it casts .315"?) So he sized it to .309". Does this sound familiar Ian??
Dad started with Unique but soon changed to 2400. 12 grains.... This interested young kid asked Dad why..... "Know those bullets you dug out of the backstop?" I nodded. "I saw gas cutting on the base band so I changed powder to a slower one." I nodded like I understood (and did later)
We always shot 200 yards... Even now I can reminisce the .22 rimfire like crack, then the pause, then the 'slap' on the thick military type elevating targets!
Dad won a lot of events at the range using that load usually again other '06 rifles as the club got G.I. ammo from the DCM for military qualification courses. Dad was winning with that soft plain based bullet at 200 yards against full power jacketed .30-06!!
I sent a Winchester Model 94 barrel to a fella named Ward Koozer in Oregon to rebore to .38-55.... About 1959 or '60..... I remember talks later about my Dad's target rifle in the '30's after I showed him a cast round for my 'new' .38-55 ... Dad had a Winchester Hi-Wall .38-55 with a 28" octagon barrel! We talked about the "Hudson bullet".... This was an early Lyman bullet for .38-55 with bands increasing in diameter towards the base like the Pope bullet..... He told me his mould was for the standard Lyman bullet but the Hi-Wall throat allowed him to seat out a "couple lube grooves" from the case.
My Dad sold that .38-55 Hi-Wall and a Colt Single Action Army .44-40 that he bought new in 1935! Money for my Mom when he went into WW2.
My Dad taught me to cast and reload when I was still single digits! Must be why some think me 'old fashioned'!!
Pete
quicksylver
Well-Known Member
What a nice thread...do we have stickies ?
quicksylver
Well-Known Member
quicksylver
Well-Known Member
Tell me more ...I was about ready to buy a set of RCBS X dies as my old Lyman FL 30-06 die seems to size the neck off center...as a matter of fact I was going to post some pictures of the problems I am having with it..
I can get them re-centered by running them through the Lee collet die after FL sizing but it's an extra step and only improves the situation..
I like my Lee collet die but need to FL size the cases for the M1 Garand..any suggestions or plain out do's..?
quicksylver
Well-Known Member
Eutectic..what size does that 308 mold cast ?