Possibly the BEST plain base .30 cal. bullet out there

[fiver]

Dan I'd look at your primer punch stem.

one other way around the neck 'donut' is to put it at the front instead of the rear.
I have no M-type dies so control neck tension through ball diameter.
this gives me what I want with a jacketed bullet, but not quite what I need with cast.

so what I do is use a larger ball to bump my case mouth against the little taper at the front.
an 8mm is perfect for the 30 cals. [7 for the 25, 243 for the 223, 30 for the 7mm]
I bump the case mouth and chamber the case and keep on going until I feel it scraping it's way to the end of the chamber.
then I back my seat die waay out and run the seater stem down lower.
the case mouth just enters the neck portion of the die and the boolit is pressed into place in multiple steps at each step I spin the case so it generally takes me 3-4 steps to seat a bullet.

[I have noticed this reduces run out]
I have also been known to use a different caliber die to seat boolits, I.E. 8mm lebel for 8 mauser, 45 colt for 44-40.

 

[Reed]

All this talk about this bullet makes me want one. Not to solve this PB I've been asking about here, but for my M1917. Help me think this through. My 1917 is somewhere in the neighborhood of .300 x .311 Dan and I discussed in another thread. I think it lived a life of luxury after its arsenal rebuild. The bolt, slides, magazine & follower barely have any shiny spots on the finish they put on them there, so I don't think it got shot much. What I don't know is how oversized the arsenal allowed them to go out the door. I can tell you that a .300 nose doesn't fall into the muzzle. It takes a little press, about as much force as clicking a ballpoint pen. Working through Accurate's screens, here are the dimensions I think I should ask for, but I'd like your input. I'm thinking one cavity GC and one cavity PB.

Body .312 +.002/-.000
Bore Ride Diameter .302 +/- .001
Bands as drawn + .001 (so they would be .305, .307, .309, .311)

Suggestions?
Reed

 

[Eutectic]

Eutectic..what size does that 308 mold cast ?

I don't have a bullet to mic quicksylver. The old mold hasn't seen alloy since the mid-60's. I may have to cast some and try them in .30-30.??

Ideal Handbook #34 (1947) states the bullet (which was 308403 then 311403 later) and says the diameter of the first four bands from the point should be 0.301", the fifth band 0.303", the sixth 0.305" and the last one 0.315".

I remember the base band at .315" and the first couple bands at .301". I thought my father's mold was more progressive that the Lyman #34 says. I remember fired bullets from soft dirt at 200 yards having rifling showing from about half way up, with the first one visually more shallow engraved. Could of been set back but I doubt it. We cast all binary alloys back then and he used 1 in 10 mostly and only 12 grs. of 2400.

My father sized the base band to .309" and seated an UNLUBED bullet only a little over 1/2 the base band length! He would dip each loaded round into lube in a double boiler and seat each round on its base to harden. I still remember his temper if one fell over!

They would seat into that '03 chamber (and bore) without pushing the bullet deeper in the case.... He told me... "The front part rides on the lands."

Pete

 

[Brad]

Tell me more ...I was about ready to buy a set of RCBS X dies as my old Lyman FL 30-06 die seems to size the neck off center...as a matter of fact I was going to post some pictures of the problems I am having with it..

I can get them re-centered by running them through the Lee collet die after FL sizing but it's an extra step and only improves the situation..

I like my Lee collet die but need to FL size the cases for the M1 Garand..any suggestions or plain out do's..?

Redding makes a Type S bushing die in both full length and neck only sizing. Get a full length. With the right tools, like the Stoney Point, you can adjust the die to bump the shoulder a known amount of needed. You can also adjust the bushing to size only part of the neck while still bumping the shoulder! What you don't want to do it hold the bushing tight down, let it float. Letting it float gives me very concentric necks, holding it tight can make them crooked.
By using a larger, or smaller, bucking you can adjust the neck tension. The bushings come in .001 increments in a range of "standard" dimensions. Measure a few case necks, decide how much tension you want and order that size and maybe larger and smaller by .001.
No internal neck expander is needed because you aren't taking a neck down .010 then opening it back up. Less over wearing of case necks is a good thing.

For a Garand I would use the Redding FL bushing die and definitely a tool like the now Hornady Stoney Point tool. Deprime a fired case without sizing. Using the headspace gauge on your calipers measure the case length to the datum line on the shoulder. Now slowly adjust your size die until you push the shoulder back say .002. This means the case should easily chamber even in a dirty chamber but without over working the case and giving a potential head separation. Then set neck sizing length by adjusting the top of the die stem to set bushing travel in it's "sleeve" in the top of the die.

I hope that helps.

 

[fiver]

most of the older milsurp 0-6 rifles do well with a 311 diameter and with tapered designs such as this for a reason.

what is that reason?
the only way your gonna know for sure is to measure the rifle.
sticking a drive band in to touch the muzzle only tells you the nose fits the front of the rifle.
now you can pick a known design such as this one and do quite well with it, or you can measure the throat then pick a design based on shape and diameter of known numbers.

it will also explain why my 1917 won't shoot the 311041 which I bought specifically for it [but will shoot the shorter same basic design rcbs 150gr mold] and the 03A3 will shoot the 041.

 

[quicksylver]

I HAVEN'T GOT ANYTHING THAT WILL SHOOT THE 041..EITHER NOE'S OR LYMAN...ANY ALLOY..ANY SIZE ...NOTHING ....

 

[Ian]

That's because you don't have the Lee group buy version of the 311041......that bullet will shoot in ANYTHING .30 caliber and shoot well. The secret? The nose is the right size and the front band is .305"...just right to support the middle of the bullet in the throat during firing, and it has steep, deep lube grooves that have low engraving pressure.... The devil is always in the details....

I used to use Lee collet neck sizing dies because I was cheap and they are in a way "adjustable" for different neck tension. However, they are a little bit inconsistent and almost always make for a lot of bullet run-out because they don't support the case head in line with the neck fingers, they pilot off of the flash hole and how many times are those in the middle of the pocket, and how many times does the case body end up concentric with the primer pocket after fire-forming without taping the case head? NEVER. So I ponied up and bought either RCBS or Redding dies (as required) for all my business calibers. RCBS, Forster, and Redding offer slightly different tools, some are just blank dies with neck bushings, some have a shoulder-bump feature, some FL size as well, each has their place and use and through the lifespan of brass you may find you need all three kinds, plus a FL sizing die. If you shoot high-pressure, high-velocity loads, you will need to bump the shoulder a couple of thousandths each time you resize the brass. Light loads get by fine with all that extra bolt face load from not bumping the shoulder because the pressure isn't enough to over-stress the bolt lugs. In semi-autos, you can't leave that little unsized bit at the base of the neck because the cartridges might not chamber, so you can still neck size, but you can't short-size in a FL/bushing die, you have to either FL size or use a combination of shoulder-bump or hollow-body neck sizing die and then a body/shoulder die so you get a full-length-sized neck and a shoulder/body sizing to fit the headspace minus a couple thousandths.

For precision seating dies that have threads on the outside, there is only one brand I buy: FORSTER. Sometimes you have to hone out the neck portion of the floating cartridge guide to accept cast bullet that is a few thousandths larger than jacketed, and often a de-burring of the nose punch is required, but they are absolutely the best press-mounted dies I've found for seating bullets.

The RCBS X die is praised by some, and cursed by me. I finally bought one just for my M1A and it is the most brass-destroying POS I have. The only way I'll ever be able to use it is if I open it up to .30 caliber. That's right, the neck is so small it would almost work for a 7mm-08. Useless. Necks get so over-worked and stretched that they have a donut in two resizings which either has to be reamed or the brass tossed. Necks come out always off center due to the over-crunching and then violent stretching the expander ball has to do. Then, after all that, you still have to expand the neck another five thousandths to get your bullets in them. No way will I ever buy another set of those things. If anyone wants my .308 set, they are very much for sale, cheap, and might even be useful if the neck was enlarged about .012".

 

[Sendaro]

Ben, Photos always add so much to a thread. Yours are great. Thank you for posting them. Also that 315 is shooting very well for you. I keep hearing how well the SAECO 315 design shoots. Your target shows a very nice 50 yard group. At present I'm researching different PB 30 cal bullets to try in my 30-30 CPA 1 in 10" twist. I'm nearly sold on getting a 315 mold. Have you tested that bullet at any more distance ranges? I'm wondering how it would be at ranges 100 to 500 yards. With the load that you show the target was shot what speed are you getting? Again thanks for posting the photos.

Sendaro

 

[Reed]

All this talk about this bullet makes me want one. ... I don't know is how oversized the arsenal allowed them to go out the door. I can tell you that a .300 nose doesn't fall into the muzzle. ... Working through Accurate's screens, here are the dimensions I think I should ask for, but I'd like your input. I'm thinking one cavity GC and one cavity PB.

Body .312 +.002/-.000
Bore Ride Diameter .302 +/- .001
Bands as drawn + .001 (so they would be .305, .307, .309, .311)

... the only way your gonna know for sure is to measure the rifle.
sticking a drive band in to touch the muzzle only tells you the nose fits the front of the rifle.
now you can pick a known design such as this one and do quite well with it, or you can measure the throat then pick a design based on shape and diameter of known numbers.
...

I did a pound cast this afternoon of my M1917 (5-groove) and measured it multiple times with brass shim stock. I took the most consistent results, and after doing the subtraction for double the thickness of the stock, here is what I came up with. What are your thoughts on the dimensions above I'm contemplating for the Accurate 31-175BP?

 

[Ben]

A super clear photo.

Ben

 

[Reed]

I'm looking at my numbers again. For the body, does .312 + .002 mean the cast will be anywhere from .312 to .314 using the alloy I specify? Is this the tolerance of the cavity dimension I'm going to get? I'm not sure, I guess what the +.002 exactly means. Largest part of the throat/leade (?) is .313-ish. Should I ask for the body to be .313 +.002? I'm now thinking probably. Help?

 

[Reed]

A super clear photo.

Ben

Thanks. I groused about having to buy a new phone, but I'm really liking the camera.

 

[quicksylver]

I'm looking at my numbers again. For the body, does .312 + .002 mean the cast will be anywhere from .312 to .314 using the alloy I specify? Is this the tolerance of the cavity dimension I'm going to get? I'm not sure, I guess what the +.002 exactly means. Largest part of the throat/leade (?) is .313-ish. Should I ask for the body to be .313 +.002? I'm now thinking probably. Help?

First of all I would stop over thinking things here...check the Noe site ..check their dimensions on the 315 ..order the same from Tom...

Why;
1. NOE 's dimensions are set for COWW..any other alloy is going to cast larger
2. As I stated.... my 315 from NOE shot the groups I showed you out of my 1917 with the same barrel ..that was with an alloy that cast 312 and again with a gas check seated and sized .313.
3. I would want the bullet to work in other 30 cals I may own...

What did you learn from the pound cast?...
1. How to do a really good pound cast
2. Good news..your 1917 is like all the others.."The original barrels were cut with .0055 grooves and .30 bores...2x .0055 is .011..add the .30 bore and you have .311...plus .002 over for cast and you have .313...she will shoot...5 grooves are 50 % grouve and 50% lands..all nice and deep all perfect for cast bullets..."
3. Any mold that cast a bullet with COWW that is at least .311 or will cast a .312 with harder alloy should work checked and sized .313..If you ask I will post pictures of at least three other bullets that shot groups like the ones i showed you..

Now for some other suggestions..what you are experiencing for groups is not the fault of bullet design but rather a combination of things..;

1. The shooter needs more trigger time with the rifle (a great thing)
2. Bullets still could be larger.
3. I have found best accuracy with somewhere around 17-18 grains of 2400 or 21-22 grains of RX7 ...as a matter of fact both of these powers worked better for me than 4198...my experience..

The biggest problem you are going to have is finding bullets that have a nose big enough to work in other 30 cals ...but small enough to be chambered in the 1917...
unless you want to purchase a mold just for the 1917..

 

[Sendaro]

At the risk of sounding like a dummy, Just what the hell is a pound cast???? Is anything like taking a chamber casting with Cerosafe?

Sendaro

 

[Ian]

You take a fired case, fill it almost all the way up with hard lead alloy, put a really long pure lead bullet in the end of the case, force it to chamber, then slide a taped steel or brass rod down the bore and tap on it with a hammer until the lead fills all the space it can. Eject and you have something like Reed just made a few posts up, an excellent, permanent, size-consistent record of your chamber and throat shape.

 

[Brad]

http://www.artfulbullet.com/index.php?threads/article-2-how-i-make-pound-casts.131/

 

[Sendaro]

OK. I understand. Thanks. However wouldn't a chamber casting done right be just as good?

Sendaro

 

[Ian]

Sure, if you have the materials to do it and are fastidious with timing and measuring.

 

[JWFilips]

I like the pound casts best because I store each away and refer back to it years later!

 

[fiver]

if you get a +.002 from Tom the numbers you insert into the design function will come back at +.002
so ordering a 313 on the major diameter will come back at 315 with the alloy you designate.

I recommend you design or order at a +/-.000 this gives you some alloy wiggle room.
the other way is to split the difference and go with the +.002 then size down that extra .001.