Sometimes the old loads are best.

[RicinYakima]

I spent the morning shooting test loads with "Uncle Russ". A group of us have been working with Ed Harris the last couple of years with his new bullet designs for .32, .38 and .45. In my shooting box were some older loads for the .45 Auto Rim. Lyman #452423 was Elmer Keith's second bullet design and has become a standard as an alternative to the #454424 .45 Colt bullet. About 20 years ago a fellow named Charles Graff wrote an article for "The Fouling Shot" magazine about why he loved the '423. So I did some loading with it and it is a fine bullet. Below is the target I shot today with it, better than any of the new designs and Bullseye for powder.

 

[quicksylver]

WOW ...and from a 4" barrel to boot...!

 

[freebullet]

Well done, Ric.

Never played with one of those but, the Harris 30 cal is definitely one of my favorites. Have the Lee versions & the hm2.

 

[RicinYakima]

It goes into the wall hanger file. It was about 1/2 way through 24 or so groups, again lucky, but I'm happy with that one.

 

[Ben]

I spent the morning shooting test loads with "Uncle Russ". A group of us have been working with Ed Harris the last couple of years with his new bullet designs for .32, .38 and .45. In my shooting box were some older loads for the .45 Auto Rim. Lyman #452423 was Elmer Keith's second bullet design and has become a standard as an alternative to the #454424 .45 Colt bullet. About 20 years ago a fellow named Charles Graff wrote an article for "The Fouling Shot" magazine about why he loved the '423. So I did some loading with it and it is a fine bullet. Below is the target I shot today with it, better than any of the new designs and Bullseye for powder.
View attachment 3759

View attachment 3760

What a great load and target !


Ben

 

[oscarflytyer]

I bought Waters' Pet Loads because I got sick and tired of all the 'internet pet loads.' NOT been disappointed so far! I used it to start with the load I am using in my 45-70 Marlin. Wanted something light (for my rebuilt shoulder) but effective in the woods. Hit the jackpot! And would have never tried it if not for the book, as it is a good bit below the std published (even) Trapdoor loads. (405 grn HB cast over 38.5 grns IMR 3031. Other oldies include H&G 68/5.0 grns Bullseye (some of my best groups ever!) in 45 ACP, 250 Keith/7.5 grns Unique in 44 SPC, 3 diff 45 Colt 'old' loads. New ain't always better - Old often works great. Now working on a number of older 30-30/35 Rem and eventually 38-55 loads. Same for 357 Mag.

 

[Brad]

Classic loads didn't get that way by sucking.

Some of those old timers were pretty smart. Without them we wouldn't be where we are today. Listening to Elmer is never a bad idea.

 

[KHornet]

Old is not necessarily bad, and new is not necessarily good.
Applies to a whole lot of things in life.

Paul

 

[oscarflytyer]

I have had MUCH better luck once I just went back to the old tried and true loads. Includes using RL-7 powder! Not ever been dissappointed. Of course, I shoot mostly all old stuff - that might help things! Only old one I shoot now that not had best of luck with old loads is a Uberti 44-40. Found that a lot of the old loads for the 44-40 were very hot, at least for revolvers. Add to the fact that mine has very fat open throats... Hut an old tried and true powder, HP-38, works great in it! So it is kinda still an old load!

 

[fiver]

Charles Graff is airc known as Chargar on some forums.

when I was first getting started loading I was getting about 99.9% of my information from reading the magazines of the time.
I was pretty convinced that I could magically tune a load by using a different powder or amount and not by changing anything else.
I went and bought a different pound of powder just about every 2 weeks and worked loads with it in the meantime.
I was measuring and weighing everything, cutting case necks, trimming primer pockets and flash holes, just about everything I could figure out that would/should help.

I never could get those discount FMJ's and bulk bagged bullets to shoot a whole lot better than an inch or so.
the first time I broke down and bought some good sierra's and gave them a run my groups instantly shrank to 1/3 the size I had formerly been getting.
now that I had dribs and drabs of powder and some bullets the rifle liked I went ahead and worked my way back through everything shooting the odds and ends up.
then went back to the 4895 I had been using before I started the whole thing,,,,, only with good bullets this time.

 

[RicinYakima]

Fiver, Somewhere I have e-stored an AR article by the production head of Frankfort Arsenal from about 1930 through 1955. From the thousands of test they made, the bullet is 80% of accuracy, everything else in minutiae. It certainly changed how I reloaded when I read it 40 years ago. I look very carefully at marketing compared to performance. Ric

 

[fiver]

I didn't even have a clue as to what to look at.
I knew no one that even re-loaded except for shot shells, and was just winging it with some load books and magazines.

I did learn that lesson pretty quick though.
a good barrel and a good bullet will pretty much trump anything else you do to the gun or the ammo.
unless your doing damage.

 

[Bret4207]

I believe the article was "452423, I love you!". That article spurred me to get the 423 and use it in my 17 Smith and Ruger BH Convertible. It's a great design. And Chargar (Charles Graff) passed on a lot more info than just that tid-bit!

 

[Pistolero]

Heck of a group.

Ah, yes. Chargar. I remember the article. He said he even used it in 1911s, which prompted me to try, and sure
enough, feeds fine, even though it looks impossible.
My best loads in the S&W .45 ACP guns is with AR brass and that bullet, although the slightly fatter MP mold
version works better in my big cylinder throats. .455 and .456 in the S&W and Colt 1917s.

Bill

 

[oscarflytyer]

I know Sierra bullets have a great accuracy reputation. But I started out with the std Speer HotCor when I was reloading for a 300 Win Mag over 30 years ago. 180 grn flat base. That thing shot lights out in my rifle ( and I had done some accuracy things to it - B&C bedded stock, free floated bbl). I have 2 diff loads, one max and one min, 2 diff powders. And at 100 yds one is <.4" and one is < .7" . And with little or no real work up. I have tended to make the Speer HCs my go to bullet for all my hunting needs. Plenty accurate (especially with my old eyes, and now lever guns with peep sights) and the terminal performance on game has always been outstanding. Few years ago, a deer only ran ~25 yds or so, from a 6.5 that passed clean thru broadside and hit no bone. Can't beat that.

 

[USSR]

Speaking of the 452423,

This has become my favorite .45 caliber bullet. Can be loaded in .45 ACP or .45 Colt. Bullet on the left came out of my Series 70 Gold Cup at a leisurely 800fps.

Don

 

[Tom]

I think Charles also goes by gato Gordo.

 

[Pistolero]

I have that same MP mold. It turns out really nice bullets which make really nice mushrooms, as you have
demonstrated. Great pix!

Bill

 

[Intheshop]

Old classic loads;there's a few that come to mind....

429421,2400 load gets it done.1/2 dz Deer shot with it didn't go far.Closest being about 15 feet.

38 g of H380 52g 22-250 and never looked back.

43.5 g of 4350 with 85 g Sierra HP in a 243.A pickup truck wouldn't hold the varmints jacked with that combo out of several rigs.

4198 with 50-52 g match bullets in a triple duce

5 g 231 behind a 200 g H&G 68 in 45 ACP

 

[Canuck Bob]

I like Water's book and data as well. One question regarding Hodgdon and IMR older stick powders. Many of these powders have gone through confusing changes. Can I trust older info for Australlian powder as an example. I use Hodgdon's data center and have some current manuals.