standard or magnum cartridges?

[todd]

i say this as a caveat, i dislike magnum rifle cartridges. i don't use and never will use magnum rifle cartridge.

now, that is out of way........

it used to be magnum rifle cartridges are belted cartridges, but way overbore cartridges, like the 28 Nosler, doesn't use a belt, but i include them as belted magnum cartridge.

in the areas i hunt deer, 100 yards is a long shot. its more likely a 30 - 50 yards shot. a 300 yards shot is quite a rarity. 400 yards shot is quite rarer still. a 500 yards is like your chance to win the Powerball grand prize. 600 and above yards is like winning the Powerball and Daily Numbers and Lotto the same day.

i "get" that the belted magnums have their place, 300 yards and above. but to take belted mag in the areas that i hunt is absurd. speed doesn't kill. either do foot-pounds (i'm still waiting for someone who can explain what foot/lbs is?)

for instance, i took a 444 marlin using a 265gr Hornady FN with H4198 that goes a warm 2300+fps. i killed a doe (behind the shoulder) at around 40 yards and she ran about 20-30 yards and then she fell over dead. next year i take out my 444, accept with a 300gr SEACO FN GC with 2400/tuft of dacron that goes 1624fps. i again shot a doe at 40 yards or so and she jogged about 15 -20 yards and then she fell over. the 35/30-30 using 200gr RCBS FN GC goes 1727fps and the 30-40 Krag using a 165gr Ranch Dog goes 1924fps and the 9.3x57 with 275gr WFN GC goes about 1800fps . all of them are one shot wonders, deer will either go DRT or jog about 20-30 yards and then fall over.

i used the 7-08 and 7x57 (139gr Hornady FN) about 2600-2700fps, (30-06 125gr - 180gr jacketed bullets) that go about 2700-3100fps and the 243, 25-06, 270, 30-30, 308 ,45-70.........all with jacketed bullets and the deer either goes DRT or runs about 20-30 yards and falls over.

the big difference between cast boolits and the jacketed is the bloodshot meat. i no longer have bloodshot meat, thanks to cast boolits. it does however, mess up the deer's lungs.


now, here comes my complaint/qustion.

why on God's green Earth, do you use a rifle magnum when you know the distance will be 100 yards and under?

speed? it goes so fast that it will kill deer, no matter what's the range.
it doesn't werk fer me. i shot a few deer with my revolver and the 44 spl and 255gr Keith type boolits with a Skeeter load of unqiue. i'm guessing that it goes 800-900fps.

ft/lbs? it goes x amount of tons per foot/pound.
i gotta laugh at that one. two rams ramming their heads together creates a lot of ft/lbs. do you ever see them NOT walk away? no. welp, there goes ft/lbs.


i have a younger brother whose friend is one of the "speed kills" variety. he buys the newest, bestest cartridge on sav-win-rem-erthby rifles. last year, he did a 338 lapua mag in savage m110 long range in 338 lapua mag. he hunts the same area as me and his longest shot is a 100 yards. thankfully, he didn't get one. i think the lapua will either act like a fmj or it will blow up and God help the deer.

anyway, now he has 28 Nosler in a brown x bolt that he wants to kill deer with, at under 100 yards. you would think that after seeing a deer run and the deer was shot by a magnum, you think he go to a standard cartridge?

i guess i'm done for now. what do you use in the area that you hunt?

 

[Glaciers]

Well I used to have 338’s and liked them. 458 mag I seriously like. But don’t really need them you would occasionally get 200 to 300 yard shots on moose, so conditions and critters are a little different here.
Currently I’m a fan of the 35 Whelen, 358 Winchester, 338-06, and 458x2, and 45-70 for nasty stuff. That said if I lived in white tail country I would be right there in your camp.
Only belted cartridge I use any more is 458 wildcat. Just don’t need them

 

[fiver]

that 338 LaPua isn't what most think it is.
it's still a rainbow arc of epic proportions getting it out very far.
it relies on BC and momentum to get anywhere just like the 45-70 does.

anyway what i use is what i got.
if it flies flat enough to 300yds. to point and press i'm good with it.
it sucks hind tit to have to stand/sit there and watch a nice Buck cruise up a ridge at a slow walk and know there ain't no sense in even trying to figure the hold over and hold-off.
sucks worse when you have a rifle sitting in the safe that'd make the shot a pretty easy one if you can hold still enough.
most all of my hunting rifles start with the X57 case size, and a few end with 0-6 as the last 2 numbers.
i've had a WSM, and i briefly owned a 308 Norma, never ever took them along to shoot at an animal though.

 

[RicinYakima]

Dreams! I have a 450 Watt Magnum (early 458 Lott) in case I ever go to Africa, and a 358 Norma Magnum in case I ever go to Alaska.

 

[Jeff H]

Dreams!....

The only actual REQUIREMENT.

I've traded dreams of "going to Alaska," hunting BC, or even just out of state to hunt with my brother for dreams of enough spare time to while away an afternoon in the back yard with a hundred rounds of pistol ammo and a single shot rifle, with no paper-target-pressure and no deadline for wrapping it up.

Dreams - hope, if you can't find a wee bit of that in yourself, you're one desperate soul.

That said, the most potent thing I've had a need for (or desire to use) is the old, moderate-pressure/velocity military numbers in the 57mm case and similar.

 

[oscarflytyer]

I LOVED the 300 Win Mag that was my Dad's. It was awesome. SUPER accurate. But, I parted with it as I got older/no need in AL for deer/beat up/shoulder surgery/good friend's kids wanted it. No regrets. Never had any other mag, and none I can think of that I missed.

These days, I do shoot some big boomers (45-70/405 Win), but cast bullets at very moderate velocity and recoil. I still like my big cases and thumb bores, but stuff them with cream puff loads!

 

[RBHarter]

My Dad , grands , and Uncle Bingo were fans of the 25 thru 30-06' .
I've always liked the 7×57 and long wanted for a 280 Rem ........ probably mostly to be different . Out west we hunted Mulies above the tree lines in fields of granite flag stone so 300 yd was a realistic shot to plan for 200-250 wasn't unusual . Elk were found in top of the trees and 200-250 was an expected shot .

The above is why many choose things like the 7mm and 300 WM .

That said I'm now in Arkansas and there are places where you can see 3-400 yd but realistic ranges are less than 150 yd . I want to believe in the 30-30 but too many years of 308 is barely enough makes it hard . So I split the difference and have a 45-70 and 358 Win .

I never had Magnumitus , never felt the need for one really.
I think until happenstance fell in my lap the only mag I ever had was a 357 . Dad came by an FN 98 264 WM so there's that still around , it's the belted mag in family.
Dang it I forgot the 3" 12 ga ........that I ended up feeding 2-3/4 exclusively .

I think I could be comfortable with just a 257 Roberts, 280 Rem and an 06' though the 45-70 is growing on me .

 

[CWLONGSHOT]

I have a few, but like you rarely use and havent really "needed" in my hunting thus far.

But I also have a 358 Norma Mag incase I go somewhere it can be utilized.

I like the 7Rem Mag for its long range abilities. But haven't "needed" it.

I grew up in awe if my uncles 300 H&H. I remember my first shot and how it was no where near the fire belching monster my 12 year old brain expected. I knew I would have one. I have brass, new and used and dies but still no gun.

I have a bunch if calibers I like a few I love but havent seen one I didnt at least appreciate. I am a 35 cal nut! My area means close and the 357 Maxi & 45 Colt have taken more deer and hogs then all others combined. But also love my 358 Win & 35 Rem calibers. They are dandy cast bullet launchers!!

100% on the blood shot meat. Thats hydro static shock and dosnet start untill about 2200 fos impact velocity. So seeing as most cast is hundreds under that... Well yup no blood shot meat!

CW

 

[Hawk]

My deer hunting is in east Texas where the pine trees are thick and shots in them would be in the 50 to 100 yard range, but my blinds are on the tops of hills of a pipeline right of way and a power line right of way.
Both my blinds are tower stands and I have them set up so I have basically bench rest conditions for longer shots.
I have 300 yard shots on far ridges at every blind and one side has a 400 yard shot. Game crosses these ridges all the time and most of my shots are at 200+ yards.
I have practiced at all of these long distances for the blinds and know I can easily make the shots.
I hunt with a two Remington 700 BDLs chambered in 270 Win, because that is what my Dad raised me on.
We also have hogs that can go over 400 lbs. and we are told to shoot them on site by the paper company that owns the property. I have shot hogs at the
I have a 7MM Rem Mag that I bought thinking it would be better. I was slightly flatter, but not enough to make any difference at that range, so it sits in the back of the gun safe.
I once hunted elk in Wyoming with my uncles 300 Weatherby Mag. The shot was a little over 350 yards and I was glad to have the extra horse power and flatter trajectory.
Not reflecting on anyone on this board, but some people are not good shots, no matter how much they practice. My middle brother was one of them. He was of slight build and very nervous. He was mediocre from the bench, but would get buck fever with game. He never hit anything at over about 75 yards, even though Dad had taught us both to shoot. He would always get so excited and his nerves just weren't built that way. I hunted with him for over 50 years and it was always the same.
If I hunted in the woods and didn't have the longer shots, I would probably have an AR setup in a caliber suitable for deer (because that would be fun) or maybe lever action 30-30 or Dads 35 Remington lever action. I have a 7.62x40 WT that I use for hogs and it is easy to hit them past 250 yards.
It really depends on where you are hunting, the size of the game and whether your game might eat you.

 

[Rick H]

I own one magnum rifle (discounting the 44mag. CVA). It is a 7mmRemMag that I built for a BC mountain goat hunt that never happened. (long story) It handles 160-162gr spitzer BT bullets extremely well. The trajectory gives me a point blank range of 350 yds on medium/large game. I have used it on Mule deer out west and Michigan Whitetails. I have not found it any more destructive than my 7x30 Waters, 308W, or 45-70. Is it more than I need in Michigan? Sure, but I have it and use it on occasion. I prefer lighter rifles for most of the hunting that I do but the 7mag will get the job done if I ask it to.

I have a friend who has hunted across the globe, Yukon, Africa, Western US and Alaska. He lives here in Michigan with me and hunts with me in our deer camp. He is a one rifle guy and long ago settled on a Mauser 98 actioned 338WinMag. with 210 gr. Noslers. It works for him. His deer don't look any more mangled than mine. I wouldn't want to lug that rifle around but I can't argue with his choice. It has worked on Moose, Eland, Zebra, Brown Bear, Black Bear, Elk, Antelope, Whitetail/Mule Deer and all sorts of smaller African plains animals.

 

[richhodg66]

I generally agree, not needed but nothing says you can't load a big magnum down, we as bullet casters should realize that more than most.

A .458 Win Mag becomes a Trapdoor .45-70 real easy.

I hunt deer almost exclusively from tree stands and blinds. The hunting part comes in doing the scouting, figuring out movement patterns and making the ambush plan accordingly. I learned most of what I know while trying bowhunting over several years so I tend to think close. The vast majority of my shots are real close at unsuspecting deer and when I pull a trigger is it is almost always a closed deal at that point. There are places around here where one could kill one at long range, but in my opinion, you have to be setting yourself up for that kind of shot and it's to be avoided.

 

[JonB]

I'm not much of a hunter, meaning I just don't seem to get joy from the "hunting" part, now I don't have any problem with shooting an animal for the purposes of harvesting meat.

now, with that is out of way........
(borrowing that from the OP)

I have attempted to hunt deer in my area, which is mostly flat farmland, with some drainage ditches and a few swampy lowlands scattered in...some have trees, most do not. The State of MN has deemed this a slug shotgun zone, no rifles allowed for hunting deer. But they do allow handguns,
I used a 12ga (Rem 870 with slug barrel) and I've also used a 357mag revolver. The group that I hunted with, would sit in a stand in early morning (usually in a corner of a farm field), then do a "post and drive" type of thing in the afternoon. Since I was a newbie to this group, I was one of the "drive" hikers, I found a 357 was much more conductive to hiking through the tall grass of the swamps, than trying to carry a long shotgun. I never shot a deer.

 

[Bret4207]

Since you asked, I will give you my opinion on magnum/overbore cartridges.

Outside of those living/hunting in places where the ranges actually exceed 350-400 yards or where big animals that can eat/hurt/kill people exist, the sole reason for getting the magnum is testosterone combined with falling for advertising hype. There is absolutely nothing that the vast majority if lower 48 hunters hunt that can't be handled with a 6.5x55, 257 R, 7x57, 270, 308, 30-06. I fell victim to this disease at one time. I recovered fully.

My opinion and worth just what you paid for it.

 

[Petrol & Powder]

To boil down the question in the Op to its basic form, the OP asked, “why on God's green Earth, do you use a rifle magnum when you know the distance will be 100 yards and under?”

The answers are varied but hardly complex. It involves braggarts, posers, ignorance, competition, and just a general lack self-awareness and confidence,

These are the same guys that buy the brand-new quad cab, dually, 4 WD, 1 ton, truck with every option so that they can pull a 14’ Aluminum John Boat once a year. They’ve never put a stick of wood in the bed of that truck, and they don’t own a chain saw. These are the guys that buy the biggest TV made and hook it up to a 500-watt sound system inside of their tiny apartment that they are about to be evicted from because that can’t afford the rent. These are the guys that go deeply into debt to buy the huge ocean-going vessel and never leave the bay.

There are certainly times and places for magnum rifle cartridges. There are people that need magnum cartridges to meet those conditions. There are also a lot more people that will buy those rifles even when there are zero chances that they will ever find themselves in those conditions.

There are three reasons to buy a fast car:

• To go fast
• In case you want to go fast
• To make others think you go fast.

The vast majority of fast cars are sold to satisfy reasons 2 & 3 (mostly #3). The same kind of people that buy fast cars for reasons 2 & 3 also buy magnum rifles to shoot whitetail deer at 70 yards.

 

[Brad]

Because the gun rag said I need it?

Fishing lures need not catch fish, just fishermen.

Advertising is done because it works! Gun companies promote things because they want to sell you something.

My last 8-10 deer were all shot at less than 75 yards, almost all with cast bullets from a lever action. Often no scope, didn’t see a need.

I will say it made me smile when the outfitter on my first bear hunt saw my Marlin 45-70 and said “Now there is a bear gun”.

My ultimate take is that we are the oddities in the hunting world. Most hunters view their rifle as a tool, no different from a hammer. I own 2 hammers and use them for everything. A framer, roofer, etc may own a special hammer for the task at hand but they are the oddity.
As “firearm enthusiasts” it is easy to assume that Joe Hunter is as well. He isn’t, he gets 20 “shells” to last a decade because he shoots 1 or 2 a year in the field. Shooting for fun? Why, that thing kicks and hurts.

My father fits the bill. He used a 30-06 every year for deer hunting the same land as me. He asked me once if I was ever going to use something other than a lever action. To him lever guns are old school and under powered. I never argued, it wasn’t worth it,

Yep, people do weird stuff. Their money, I let them spend it.

 

[Glaciers]

My first, and basically all hunting experience was in the sage brush after mule deer in the 60’s. Shots of 200 to 300 yards were the norm with longer from time to time. Used a 30-06 which would do all that was needed. Father shot a 7mm, brother a 270, brother-in-law a 300 WM.
After coming to Alaska in the 70’s the 06 was still is my cartridge of choice. I was told by my brother in law that I needed something bigger. Of course he insisted the 300 WM he used was the cats azz. Don’t like the rude snappy recoil of the 300 and didn’t see that much advantage over the 06.
Well I arrived in Alaska with 4 CF rifles, a 218 Bee, the 30-06, 338 WM and a 458 WM that I built.
The 338 mag was a great step up from a 300 mag, recoil was a shove and ballistics were good. I had a good stock of the 275 grain Speer semi spritzer that St. Elmer recommend, still have 2 boxes.
Guys I knew recommend the 375, but I could not afford one, they were spendy back then. Great cartridge, but after 1980 I stumbled onto a 35 Whelen, so the 375 was out the window.
So longer range shooting was instilled in me from the start. Even in Alaska moose shots can be long, 200 to 300 yards, but around here it would be 30 to 100 yards. Last moose I shot was about 40 yards with a 99 Savage in 358 Winchester.

 

[Jeff H]

.....asked me once if I was ever going to use something other than a lever action. To him lever guns are old school and under powered. I never argued, it wasn’t worth it,...

My (step) father was the biggest influence on me regarding shooting, and he started me early. He was a major bolt-action man - Mausers and variants to be specific. He started me with a 30/30 24V, but that was a "kid's gun" so I had to "move up." He never shot "magnums," but he doted on the '06, 257 Roberts and the 7x57. All of those were much more rifle than one "needed" in flat, boring NW Ohio, except that the 257 was dynamite on 'chucks, of which there was and is a LOT, and they are wary, so 200 to 400-yard shots are common.

Once out on my own, I started shopping for my first rifle, which I could say I bought myself. I was living all over the place in the Army and was thinking a 30/30 lever would do well in many applications. I let him talk me out of it some 40-odd years ago. Then, I ended up going through a series of 06s, 308s, 7x57s, various 25s and even bought a 338-06 barrel for a 98 Mauser action - which never installed. Aside from shooting woodchucks, I never had a need for any of those other rifles, and their muzzle blast, and/or recoil were abusive. I sustained a serious neck injury in the Army (which went un-diagnosed and untreated for decades), which made shooting all but the 25s I'd had very painful.

Finally, I've moved (almost) all that stuff and got what I always wanted - a 30/30. I keep a 223 handy for distant 'chucks and coyotes, but even that rarely gets used. I can't use my 30/30 for deer in Ohio, but I can use it on closer vermin/varmints. Mostly, I use it to entertain myself, and it's not the least bit abusive in that role, even when shooting 30 or 40 from my sorry excuse for a "bench."

All the other stuff was cool, but "cool" wasn't enough to warrant the responsibility of keep it all. It would be cool to have a Sunbeam Tiger sitting in the garage too, but not cool enough to warrant having the cash or space tied up in it for no more than I could really use it.

The 45-70 and bears: I have a friend who was laughed at and ridiculed mercilessly for showing up for a PA bear-hunt with a 45-70. "These are BLACK bears, not POLAR bears," was the theme of the ridicule. Everyone else was using 250-3000s, 257 Roberts, a 44 Mag and a 308. He took the ribbing well and made no excuses - he just wanted to shoot a bear with his replica-antique arm.

 

[Glaciers]

Well considering longer range hunting if you look at the lowly 30-06 compared to the 300 WM, you gain about 25 yards for a point blank range. Big deal. With the modern bullets available today certainly allows lesser cartridges to really shine.
I’m envious of the hunting conditions that I read about here in this and other forums.
I don’t hunt anymore so my interest have changed. I love levers. So living in country that short range hunting is the norm and critters are just a fraction of a ton, would allow a great verity of rifles from black powder classic’s to modern like the BLR. Being able to use 30-30, 32 SPL, etc. would just be fun.

In this country I have 38-55, 348, 45-70, don’t have a 99 in 358 anymore but a great combination for this area with bigger critters.

I have no need for the super short magnum fad, or most anything with a belt. I would pick up a 300 H&H or maybe another 338, certainly a 458 WM. Is there a need, rarely.

 

[todd]

i would like to say that i have used rifle magnum cartridges, such as 375 h&h, 416 rigby, 458 win mag, 460 weatherby and the 378 weatherby mag and one wildcat cartridge that is 375 i forget what he called but it was similar to 375 h&h without the belt. a true gunsmith(RIP) and friend took me in and he let me do odd jobs and sight in the customer's guns or to prove accuracy whenever a customer comes back and says "this rifle is a piece of junk. it groups horribly." or words to that effect.

 

[CZ93X62]

I have owned one belted-magnum caliber--the 338 Win Mag. I have owned two rifles in that caliber. It left in 2003. The 338, the 375, and the 458 make sense to me, but the 3-round mag capacity always felt lacking.

After a bad time with one of the local black bears in Summer 2002, I did some arsenal upgrades--CZ-550 in 9.3 x 62 Mauser came first, in Sept. 2002. The Howa 1500 in 338 departed.

Next came a Marlin 1895, a few years later. The Ruger #1 x 45/70 was gone within a year.

In 2012, a flat-band Win 94 in 25/35 suffered a chamber ring due (likely) to dacron fill in a cast bullet load. Extraction and ejection after firing was problematic. Off to Jesse Ocumpah it went, and returned in 38/55 caliber--SUBSTANTIAL upgrade. This on remains my berry-picking rifle, in case the local bruins get froggy again. I am in no hurry to get another 25/35 any time soon.

I have taken 8 deer over my lifetime. The longest shot to date was +/- 125 yards, at age 13, with a 30/30 WCF carbine borrowed from Jiggs Alexander. It was also the biggest muley I've ever taken. The next-longest shot was in 2006, about 65 yards with a 6.5 x 55/140 NosPart. Long shots are offered once in a great while, but they aren't taken. Heat, dense brush, and topography combine to make such shots wasteful of fine game animals. Of my 8 deer, 3 were taken with a 30/30, 1 with a SBH x 44 Mag x 7.5", and one with a 586 x 357 x 6". The last two were from tree stands at close ranges, and both were DRTs.