standard or magnum cartridges?

[Bret4207]

I have no issue with people buying a gun they want. It's those that think they "need" something outlandish that makes me wonder if they did any actual research or if they just bought the latest Loudenboomer based on ad copy in "Blood n Guts Monthly". I've known a LOT of guys with 7, 30 and 338 mags that were absolutely terrified of the rifles. They never shot at more than 100 yards in practice, if they practiced at all. I never got that. If you're afraid of the gun you either need to shoot enough, maybe with some advisors around, to get over the flinch or you need to get a different rifle. I never got the sanity in shooting a gun that you feared.

 

[Kevin Stenberg]

Bret 100% like everything you said.

 

[Glaciers]

i would like to say that i have used rifle magnum cartridges, such as 375 h&h, 416 rigby, 458 win mag, 460 weatherby and the 378 weatherby mag and one wildcat cartridge that is 375 i forget what he called but it was similar to 375 h&h without the belt. a true gunsmith(RIP) and friend took me in and he let me do odd jobs and sight in the customer's guns or to prove accuracy whenever a customer comes back and says "this rifle is a piece of junk. it groups horribly." or words to that effect.

Well Todd I did have a 460 Weatherby once upon a time. Well it was my Father’s really. He bought it a a garage sale up here and came with 2 boxes of 510 grain shells. One full, one had 17 shells remaining. That should have tipped Pop off, but he wanted something BIG for that brown bear hunt we were planning.
Well CR just had to shoot this cannon without wheels right away. So out to the front yard we went. Jacked a shell in and let fly at a chunk of 8x8 down in the meadow. I was standing next to him to either catch the rifle or him when he touched it off. He managed to hold on to the rifle with one hand, but doing the flailing thing with the other, all the while doing a fast balancing dance to remain on his hind feet.
Before I could get totally involved with belly laughing CR yells as he’s looking at me holy CRAP!!!! As he’s shoving the 460 into my hands and says “sell this damn thing”
I shot it twice right away hitting the 8x8 both times and looked over at Pop saying “not that bad”. Really got a good laugh out of that. Definitely was not going to pull the trigger on that one again, my eyes were serious unfocused for a few minutes.
That was truly the most brutal rifle I’ve ever shot. I don’t know what the foot pounds of recoil on the 460, but, it’s a bunch.

 

[Glaciers]

I have no issue with people buying a gun they want. It's those that think they "need" something outlandish that makes me wonder if they did any actual research or if they just bought the latest Loudenboomer based on ad copy in "Blood n Guts Monthly". I've known a LOT of guys with 7, 30 and 338 mags that were absolutely terrified of the rifles. They never shot at more than 100 yards in practice, if they practiced at all. I never got that. If you're afraid of the gun you either need to shoot enough, maybe with some advisors around, to get over the flinch or you need to get a different rifle. I never got the sanity in shooting a gun that you feared.

Went hunting Caribou with my neighbor Gary down on the Maclaren River. Camped in the State campground at Tangle Lakes which was about 20 miles from where we wanted to hunt. Now I hadn’t been in Alaska more then 4 or 5 years. But I’m used to being on the hunt ready to shoot when it was first light. Anyway campground was absolutely full with hunters. Ever wide place in the road Had a tent, camper, MH, or trailer sucking up any spot. I was kinda shocked. Well we arrived mid afternoon before opening day, set up camp, and went to check things out. Well seeing all the mass quantity of hunters we knew we would needed to be out early.
So we were up at about 4 cooking breakfast and jumped in the truck with four Wheeler and ATV trailer on a car trailer. Looked around the campground. Shocking. Not one light was on. Ok head out. As we drove the 20 miles to where we wanted to hunt, with the Hwy Lined with camped hunters. No lights. I asked Gary if this really was opening day.
Well got to where we wanted to hunt and pulled off the road as the sky was just getting light. Just. Well walk up a rise about 100 yards from road and there was 2 small bulls silhouetted on the sky line about 150 yards out. Broadside no less.
I had my Winchester 30-06 with 190 gr Hornady’s and Gary was shooting a Ruger 77 with the red pad, in 338 mag.
We both got lined up and I dropped mine right off. Gary’s shot was just in the dirt low. Ok he lines again, Caribou’s just standing there as dumb as you please looking around. Second shot. About 2/3’s from us in the dirt. Third shot, halfway between. We wanted meat, so Gray looks over at me and says will you shoot that critter!!
Boy the lights started coming on at camps on either side of us right away.
Well that’s a bad flinch. Sold that Ruger and Gary got a 30-06 which he could shoot.

 

[todd]

I have no issue with people buying a gun they want. It's those that think they "need" something outlandish that makes me wonder if they did any actual research or if they just bought the latest Loudenboomer based on ad copy in "Blood n Guts Monthly". I've known a LOT of guys with 7, 30 and 338 mags that were absolutely terrified of the rifles. They never shot at more than 100 yards in practice, if they practiced at all. I never got that. If you're afraid of the gun you either need to shoot enough, maybe with some advisors around, to get over the flinch or you need to get a different rifle. I never got the sanity in shooting a gun that you feared.

back when i was young and dumb (i'm mostly dumb, i got out of the young phase), i'd be first one to try the Loudenboomer. but now, nope, i'll pass. the last time i shot a magnum was 12ish or so years ago and it was 338RUM(my friend RIP). i was using factory loads and i forget the bullet, but it was remington's. i should have stood up, but my friend brought it to me sitting at a bench. my dad was there and he said during the shot my face was like looking at a face on the motorcycle going 200mph. i hit the steel target right in the middle.............but my shoulder said heck no!!! not again. nope. not gonna do it. NO. then it started to hurt.........ALOT!!! i had a purple and black bruise quickly forming on my shoulder. (i shot it in the summertime without my PAST recoil pad.) i gave the rifle back and shook my head.

Well Todd I did have a 460 Weatherby once upon a time. Well it was my Father’s really. He bought it a a garage sale up here and came with 2 boxes of 510 grain shells. One full, one had 17 shells remaining. That should have tipped Pop off, but he wanted something BIG for that brown bear hunt we were playing.
Well CR just had to shoot this cannon without wheels right away. So out to the front yard we went. Jacked a shell in and let fly at a chunk of 8x8 down in the meadow. I was standing next to him to either catch the rifle or him when he touched it off. He managed to hold on to the rifle with one hand, but doing the flailing thing with the other, all the while doing a fast balancing dance to remain on his hind feet.
Before I could get totally involved with belly laughing CR yells as he’s looking at me holy CRAP!!!! As he’s shoving the 460 into my hands and says “sell this damn thing”
I shot it twice right away hitting the 8x8 both times and looked over at Pop saying “not that bad”. Really got a good laugh out of that. Definitely was not going to pull the trigger on that one again, my eyes were serious unfocused for a few minutes.
That was truly the most brutal rifle I’ve ever shot. I don’t know what the foot pounds of recoil on the 460, but, it’s a bunch.

i would do 4 or 5 when i shot 460 mag and a sweatshirt folded on my shoulder. the weatherby mags were not much fun.

 

[oscarflytyer]

In my much younger days, I would shoot anything. Still KINDA will, but I now know how to mitigate things. Having said that, THE WORST I EVER got just plain slobberknocked was stationed in Germany. Shooting my 300 Win Mag, shot a guy's 300 H&H (SWEET!) and his 375 H&H (very nice, more of a push, liked it).

Then there were some German guys had a 458 Win Mag (on a Mauser action). Hell YES, I want to shoot it!!! They were shooting off-hand. But dumb ass ME, target shooter - I hunkered down and shot it from the bench. HOLY CRAP! (I have a high cheek bone, and tend to tuck a stock under it for target work). I actually reached into my mouth and grabbed my teeth to see if I had knocked any loose (luckily, did not)! And damned Germans almost fell down laughing... I would shoot one again (with a PAST Mag recoil shield) AND ONLY off hand!

 

[fiver]

The vast majority of fast cars are sold to satisfy reasons 2 & 3 (mostly #3). The same kind of people that buy fast cars for reasons 2 & 3 also buy magnum rifles to shoot whitetail deer at 70 yards.

what?
no,, chuckle, some of us just want to get on the freeway without getting rear ended.
or live near a bunch of twisty canyons.
or can go 85 without exceeding the speed limit and ain't about to try it in the Pinto.
or maybe,, more likely have never seen a white tail deer in real life.

 

[BudHyett]

My uncle hunted deer in Colorado for years wih a Savage 99 in .300 Savage. He always limited on his tags. When he went to Canada for moose. he needed a bigger rifle. He bought a Remington 760 in .30-'06. Again, he limited out on his tags each year.

Whenever I see an ad for the latest .293 Remchester Super Eargesplitten Loudenboomen Magnum, I think of my uncle and his bigger rifle. If the .30-'06 were introduced today, the ammunition makers would add a belt to it and call it a baby "Magnum".

The only Magnum I have is a SAKO L461 heavy-barrel .222 Remington Magnum for prairie dogs. It is equivalent to the .223 Remington for practical ballisitics and thus not over-capacity for powder. My son shot a Wyoming prairie dog off the mound at 500 yards and I dare not sell that rifle.

 

[Ian]

I like rifles I can shoot without detaching my poor lasered retinas, plus there's nothing around here that a .308 won't handle. No magnums at my house except .357 and .44 and those are revolvers. If I go out west a little where shots tend to be longer, I would be more than adequately served by the featherweight .270 or 6.5x55 Mauser. I picked up a nice T3 with a bolt on the correct side because I felt somehow empty not having a classic sporting rifle chambered in .30-'06 in a long time, but all it gets is cast bullets well under 180 grains loaded to somewhere between .308 Win. and .30-30 levels or I won't shoot it enough to feel comfortable poking at game animals with it, so what's the point. My "hammer" is a 336 in .35 Remington but the only thing I killed with it was a small bull red deer and the only shot I was able to get after crawling on my belly through the brush all day was between its eyes, so anything I could make that shot with would have sufficed. My meatgetter (mostly wild pigs) has become an AR-10 in .308 with cast bullets and is the rifle I grab just about every time I go out anymore because it hits hard, shoots soft, can be shot well by me, wears a silencer, is point-blank to 250 yards and capable for a lot more in calm conditions with a couple seconds to think about the holdover, and if I run into something huge and scary it can deliver exactly half a pound of lead at over 2400 FPS in just a few seconds.

Glen Fryxell wrote it best: "Eventually, these kids find out that it's a lot more fun to learn how to HUNT than to quote chapter and verse from the latest ballistics tables". Or something to that effect. He obviously wasn't referring to dangerous game at close range where a person truly needs firepower in proportion to the job, but you get the point.

 

[waco]

I love my .338 Lapua Magnum single shot rifle. I have it for one reason only. To shoot steel targets over in the next zip code. I don't hunt big game. I have no dog in that fight. I get much satisfaction in knowing I can reach out and hit a 36"x36" target on the regular at 1800 yards if the wind isn't too crazy. But that is the fun part. Bullet drop is all math. Wind is the bitch. But I'll tell you what. If you warrant me shooting at you, I'd find a good hiding spot inside a mile. I might not get you with that first shot but I'm guessing you might wish you had a new pair of shorts with ya. Just saying...

 

[Ian]

If my body could take the recoil safely and I had the room to shoot, I'd be right there with you Walter. What little long range target blasting I've done in the past where I had more space was big fun.

 

[waco]

Ian. This rifle weighs 16 pounds. It is only shot prone. The recoil feels nothing more than a seven pound '06 running full power 180gr loads.
These are Hornady 285gr. ELD's @ 2750fps. Very tame. You would dig it..

 

[Spindrift]

One of the nice things with standard cartridges, is that they operate at velocities where non- premium bullets perform well. Thus, they offer less room for error when it comes to bullet choice. And your average hunter typically has limited insight in bullet performance.

Combine a warp- speed overbore cartridge with a weak bullet construct, and fire at a large animal at short (typical) range, and you have the recipe for blood- shot meat, and bullet failure.

 

[Rick H]

they operate at velocities where non- premium bullets perform well.

Exactly. I have found that conventional cup and core bullets perform admirably if you keep velocities below 3000fps or so. (I have had very good luck with Speer and Hornady offerings) Premium are needed to keep them together when you push them much faster. What the magnum does best is allow you to push a heavier bullet with a superior B.C. and sectional density compared to the standard cartridge. The 300 mag. does with a 200gr bullet what a 30-06 does with a 180. The 7mmRemMag does with 160-175 gr bullets what the 7x57 does with 140's.

 

[Winelover]

Have one belted (.338) Magnum. Purchased with designs of moving out West to Oregon. By the time I retired, land was too expensive to afford in any quantity.

It's a LH Model 70 SS Classic. Currently, wearing a HS Precision Synthetic stock with optional mercury reducer in butt. Trijicon Accupoint 1x4 with amber triangular post reticle.



I have shot it a lot, mainly with 180 Nostler BT's............they're a lot easier on the shoulder. I loaded some 250 grain jacketed ladder loads but ever got around to firing them. Since the westward move didn't materialize, I decided to load cast and make it more deer/shoulder friendly cartridge. Actually, this was my first attempt at loading cast in a rifle. Currently, it's the only rifle I've not taken a deer with. Need to remedy that situation, with cast.

 

[Winelover]

To date, the worst recoiling firearm that I've shot is a 12 gauge Mossberg Utility-Mag. I was patterning 3 1/2" (#5 shot) Turkey loads over one weekend. Monday morning, I was in the locker room changing into my work uniform when coworkers said WTF happened to you.. Had a bruise on my shoulder that was almost one foot square, in size.

The recoil of the 338 W doesn't hold a candle to that beast. Can only imagine what 3 1/2 rifled slugs would be like.

 

[Rick H]

Pattern testing my Mossberg 500 from the bench with turkey loads...(even with a past recoil pad under my jacket) was a teeth rattling experience. Once I settled in on WW 3" 1 3/4 oz. #5's I bought a bunch so I don't have to go through that again. I have enough ammo for the next 30 years or so of turkey hunting.
Bench testing anything seems to make the recoil way worse. The recoil of those rounds never bothered me at all shooting turkeys.

 

[Bret4207]

I love my .338 Lapua Magnum single shot rifle. I have it for one reason only. To shoot steel targets over in the next zip code. I don't hunt big game. I have no dog in that fight. I get much satisfaction in knowing I can reach out and hit a 36"x36" target on the regular at 1800 yards if the wind isn't too crazy. But that is the fun part. Bullet drop is all math. Wind is the bitch. But I'll tell you what. If you warrant me shooting at you, I'd find a good hiding spot inside a mile. I might not get you with that first shot but I'm guessing you might wish you had a new pair of shorts with ya. Just saying...

Given some time and practice you can do that with a 223, 6.5, 7mm, 30, 35, etc. Holdover isn't the problem as you noted, it's wind. The better the bullet, the easier it becomes. Learned that fam firing all sorts of fun guns long ago in the Corps. Tracers in an auto make things easier! That's one of the problems living where it's green or white all the time- in long range a miss often doesn't show, so "walking them in" is harder. A spotter helps, but who has the ammo/primers to play those games anymore?!!

It doesn't take a modern wunder gunn! Two words- Billy Dixon!

 

[Bret4207]

One of the nice things with standard cartridges, is that they operate at velocities where non- premium bullets perform well. Thus, they offer less room for error when it comes to bullet choice. And your average hunter typically has limited insight in bullet performance.

Combine a warp- speed overbore cartridge with a weak bullet construct, and fire at a large animal at short (typical) range, and you have the recipe for blood- shot meat, and bullet failure.

Excellent point!

 

[Bret4207]

Exactly. I have found that conventional cup and core bullets perform admirably if you keep velocities below 3000fps or so. (I have had very good luck with Speer and Hornady offerings) Premium are needed to keep them together when you push them much faster. What the magnum does best is allow you to push a heavier bullet with a superior B.C. and sectional density compared to the standard cartridge. The 300 mag. does with a 200gr bullet what a 30-06 does with a 180. The 7mmRemMag does with 160-175 gr bullets what the 7x57 does with 140's.

Ah! But the 280 will do pretty much what the 7 mag does with 160's too! The 280 should be far more popular than it is if the world were sane. But I suppose there's no bragging ammo with a puny little 280!

I'm still stuck on the worst recoiling rifle I ever shot being a Rem 308 in a crooked "custom made" stock with factory 180's. Not sure what it was about the rifle, but it kicked all out of proportion to what it should have if it had been in the factory stock. I never knew of the owner to actually fire it, he hired me to do that every fall! 25lbs of shot between me and it made it bearable. Horrible stock design!!!