standard or magnum cartridges?

[RBHarter]

45s .
There is an approved 45-70 rebated rim designed for the AR-10.
A guy got his whiskers all twisted when I described it as a 284 Win blown straight and sized in the 45-70 dies .......it lacks something like .002 at the head of being a perfect match ........ The WSM and it's parents the nonbelted mags (I can't remember now if it's H&H or Rigby) are just over the dia at the head for a rimless 45-70 . I'm sure there's a name for a 45 cal 416 or 375 that stuffed full of FFFg makes a 45-90 or 45-100 . The WSM would just be a 458 barrel reamed with a 45-70 to 2.10 . Also in a .451 barrel you can ream to 2.449 with a rimless 45 pistol reamer and use an 06' blown straight or basic and use 45-70 data .

 

[Bret4207]

Maybe true. But my .338 LM loaded up with a 300gr bullet still hits with the same energy at a mile as a 44 mag at point blank.

That's a target range game. I bet it's great fun, but 1/4 mile would be stretching things here, and I can't imagine the scope you'd need!

 

[Bret4207]

In all fairness I doubt any of us will ever have the chance to launch a 500 grain slug out to 1500 paces into a group of mounted war chiefs.

True, but I can remember looking at a rooftop 300 yards away where dismounted warriors had 30 and 50 cal machine guns and I had a 4" 357. Good thing I carried spare skivies.....

 

[Bret4207]

With the intro of the 6.5 Creedmoor, I thought the Magnumitis craze was over. Strange how after one more powerful than the last cannon was being introduced over the past 30 years, now about the only thing one can find is rather mild compared to traditional cartridges like the '06.

Because "Ccreedmore" sounds like "Mordor" and it brought to mind mowing down hordes of Orks while some short dude tried to melt a ring...

Sorry, just saw a meme along those lines this AM and it stuck.

 

[Winelover]

Friend of mine was interested in a sub compact semi auto. Went to the gun range with him where he rented both 9mms and 40 caliber. Glocks and S&W. I shot them also. I couldn't tell the difference between 9mm or 40 caliber in the same model. I prefered the Glock, he ended up with the S&W in 40 caliber. Factory ammo was all that was allowed in their rentals. I never went the 40 caliber route.

 

[Bret4207]

That's why I prefer a .45 ACP handgun to a .40 SW: recoil pulse. The .40 beats my hands and wrists terribly after just a few shots while downrange it and the .45 do just about the same thing.

Excellent point. My partner and I were part of the test crew when NYSP was trying to decide between the 40S+W and 45 GAP (Long story, suffice it to say Glock had an huge "in" with Division and were looking to get some good press for the GAP). The 40 was fine, but snapped back more. The 45 had the slower recoil and was easier to recover and hit follow up shots with. That was what sold the GAP to NYSP. Oddly enough, my wifes 40S+W EAA Witness, which is a clone of a Browning Hi Power offshoot "Tanglifolio" or something, has no where near the recoil impulse of the Glock. It's more like a 1911 45. I figured it was grip shape and maybe weight. But it's dead easy to shoot and fits my hand way better than a Glock, just as a HP always felt better than a 1911 (blasphemy, I know!)

 

[Michael]

Magnum, why?
338-06 or Ackley Imp and be done with it. 250gr at 2500ish, 200gr at 2700fps, or if you want flatter go with 180s or 185s just shy of 3k out of the Imp version. Right on the heals of the 338 Win without the recoil and/or muzzle blast of 7mm and 30 cal magnums, plus you can eat right up to the hole even with a poorly placed shot when using 250s. Loads down nicely with cast for fun or shorter ranges when hunting. So what if it doesnt shoot as flat as the smaller caliber magmuns, we are talking inches not feet, how many hunters could hold that difference in the field anyway.

 

[CZ93X62]

Recoil is a very subjective experience. The most pleasant and comfortable 40 S&W I have fired is my CZ-75B, and its all-steel construction plays a role in that. It is very Browning HP-like in all respects, and BHP holsters fit it perfectly.

With Euro-level loads, my newest war toy (Glock 43) jumps around a bit. 'Real' 9mm ammo is a different beast than the USA sub-sonic stuff. That shelf for the little finger is a big plus on the 43's magazine base plate. Same story with my Glock 29 (compact 10mm)--the finger hook is a HUGE upgrade.

 

[fiver]

chuckle my 75 retro is a sub-sonic machine
3grs. of powder and a 135gr bullet.
the cases just drop out a foot or two to the right and the bullet will make it all the way to the soda can no problem.
i may change my mind about the load when the last 8-9K of them are gone, but [shrug] by then i'll probably be trying to lower the load to 2.5-2.7grs.

 

[Michael]

My go to has been my 338-06 AI since '79. Yes I have shot 7mm RM, STW, and 300 Win., etc., IME I will take my 338 any day, I blame St. Elmer.

 

[richhodg66]

Always wondered if the .338-06 really differs much from the .35 Whelen when the rubber meets the road.

I have a SAnta Barbard commercial Mauser for about five or six years now I intended to send off to JES to make into a .35 Whelen, just the older I get, the less likely it seems I will ever hunt anything larger than deer and there isn't anything a .30-06 won't do just as well even with cast.

 

[waco]

That's a target range game. I bet it's great fun, but 1/4 mile would be stretching things here, and I can't imagine the scope you'd need!

6x24x50
It does have 19 mils of elevation adjustment though.

 

[waco]

Magnification is overrated.
4 1/2” steel plate at 1000 yards with a fixed 10 power SWFA scope.

 

[RicinYakima]

Magnification is overrated.
4 1/2” steel plate at 1000 yards with a fixed 10 power SWFA scope.

BR shooters like them because they don't have to set up a separate spotting scope.

 

[RicinYakima]

Always wondered if the .338-06 really differs much from the .35 Whelen when the rubber meets the road.

I have a SAnta Barbard commercial Mauser for about five or six years now I intended to send off to JES to make into a .35 Whelen, just the older I get, the less likely it seems I will ever hunt anything larger than deer and there isn't anything a .30-06 won't do just as well even with cast.

Debated for 20 years about this issue. When it came down to it, the difference was only over 300 yards. The cost of 35 moulds, dies and reloading data swayed me to the 35 Whelen. Regardless of what Ken Waters wrote, there is not an animal in the world that could tell the difference.

 

[BudHyett]

Debated for 20 years about this issue. When it came down to it, the difference was only over 300 yards. The cost of 35 moulds, dies and reloading data swayed me to the 35 Whelen. Regardless of what Ken Waters wrote, there is not an animal in the world that could tell the difference.

I totally agree on the .35 Whelen. The .35 Whelen is one hell of a cartridge for knockdown and accuracy. I've got .35 caliber rifle molds from 180 grains to 285 grains. I've a friend in Florida who uses the SAECO bullet in a .35 Remington Remington Model 81 for alligators. He claims this is the best combination in his half-centry of hunting alligators. And few deer are shot beyond 125 yards, bigger game you want to get closer to anyway.

The RCBS 35-200-FN and SAECO #352 245 grain bullets show great accuracy in my experience.

There is no need for the plethora of calibers we have today. Too often, the ammunition manufacturers neeed to introduce an "improved" caliber only to sell more rifles. The gun writers rush to exclaim the vrtures of this new addition and why we as shooters need to rush out to buy. I feel gun writers are the whores of the gun industry. If I got free guns and amunition, scopes, accessories; perhaps I would not feel that way.

 

[Spindrift]

I feel gun writers are the whores of the gun industry.

Gun writers and the industry are mutually dependant. The writers need something to fill their magazine, and the industry needs the publicity. There are some gun writers of integrity, though.

I’m also a great fan of the .35 Whelen. I use 30-06 range pick- ups for brass, works great. I have moulds ranging from 140- 310 grs. The selection of .358 commercial hunting bullets is very good. The option of using handgun bullets provides the non- caster with cheap bullets for target practice, and bullets that will expand at subsonic velocities. The flexibility of this cartridge is astounding. But if you’re only hunting lithe deer species, you don’t really need the full potential of this cartridge.

When Ken Waters wrote his first (and often quoted) article on the .35 Whelen, the selection of available bullets was different than today. He actually wrote another article, after Sierra introduced the 225 grs gameking, since he considered this bullet such an important addition.

With the 35-cal 225grs Nosler accubond bullet, I get the same velocity that I can achieve with a 180grs Accubond in a 30-06 with similar barrel length. That is a rather astounding increase in powder efficiacy. And a spectacular all-round load. With the Barnes 35-cal 180grs TSX, you can make a serious big-game load, with recoil similar to a classic 30-06 hunting round.

 

[RBHarter]

Man I'm an over achiever .....
Santa Barbara 98 in 358 Win...... 95 to 250 gr . I actually wanted a 9×57 but the price was right so .....
2100 fps with a 250 is a meat getter in a 45-70 I reckon it'll be ok in a 358 too .
I've wanted to load a few 358-90s just to see how big a poof a gallon jug will make . Then I thought , hey just PC a bunch of .360 RB and we can get a definite answer on how fast it'll hold up . I bet you could could get 3500 out of it, maybe 3800 fps .

 

[Hawk]

This thread reminds me of what the night before opening day at Deer Camp used to be like.
Sitting around the camp fire, eating canned peaches, we'd argue guns, calibers and loads most of the night.
Now we need two nights just to catch up on everyone's medical conditions!

 

[Brad]

We need to look at the writers of the past and what they said, it still has an impact today.

Elmer said the 06 was no elk cartridge. With the bullets he had that made sense. With the Nosler partition, Barnes X bullet, and other premium bullets the 06 is fine for elk. He would have died to hear I used a 270 Win on a kudu. With the X bullet I didn’t have any recovered bullets.

In the past bullet breakup was a real thing, not that it isn’t today. The technology and engineering improvements in bullet construction now allow a non magnum to compete where in the past a larger, heavier bullet was seen as needed.

I also wholeheartedly agree that the writes and manufacturers are co dependent. Without new stuff there isn’t much to write about. The manufacturers love having someone write about their new stuff.

Nothing wrong with a magnum cartridge. If a guy wants to use one I don’t really care. I just don’t see a need for most situations.

Walter and his long range shooting is a place where it makes sense. Very specialized situation.