standard or magnum cartridges?

[Rick]

I never was afflicted with rifle magnumitis. Have never been anywhere or was likely to hunt anything at any practical distance that a 308 wouldn't be from plenty to overkill. Maybe if the range went past 400+ yards the 30=06 for added range but that wasn't me. Fired the 308 in the M-14 at 500 meters in the Corps with outstanding accuracy. Besides, I've looked high and low and can safely say there is not a single wooly mammoth anywhere in these parts.

 

[waco]

Given some time and practice you can do that with a 223, 6.5, 7mm, 30, 35, etc. Holdover isn't the problem as you noted, it's wind. The better the bullet, the easier it becomes. Learned that fam firing all sorts of fun guns long ago in the Corps. Tracers in an auto make things easier! That's one of the problems living where it's green or white all the time- in long range a miss often doesn't show, so "walking them in" is harder. A spotter helps, but who has the ammo/primers to play those games anymore?!!

It doesn't take a modern wunder gunn! Two words- Billy Dixon!

Maybe true. But my .338 LM loaded up with a 300gr bullet still hits with the same energy at a mile as a 44 mag at point blank.

 

[Missionary]

I really had no need for those belts.. But one day CDNN had the Browning 78 with a 28" barrel for under $700 shipped.. But in caliber .375 H&H.
At the price I could get it re-barrel. So we got it.
Then I read an article about a .375-95 ! Can you imagine what fun a .375 BP rifle is with a 280 grain 40-1 pushed by 95 grains of 3F Goex is?

 

[Jeff H]

...It doesn't take a modern wunder gunn! Two words- Billy Dixon!

And its more fun without the added "advantage."

Nothing against magnums myself - just no need/use/desire for one myself. Some people DO have a use for one and some just like them. The "marketing boys" have made them SEEM necessary for everyone in all situations, just like today it's necessary to have three combined feet of "rail" on your gun, ventilated hand-guards, whatever.

And the only problem I have with THAT (the "marketing boys' shenanigans) is how it artificially displaces other tried, true, neat and useful stuff on the production schedules and pollutes the perspectives thought process of younger shooters.

I suppose we've already collectively said that in the whole of this thread.

 

[Missionary]

In all fairness I doubt any of us will ever have the chance to launch a 500 grain slug out to 1500 paces into a group of mounted war chiefs.

 

[richhodg66]

With the intro of the 6.5 Creedmoor, I thought the Magnumitis craze was over. Strange how after one more powerful than the last cannon was being introduced over the past 30 years, now about the only thing one can find is rather mild compared to traditional cartridges like the '06.

 

[Winelover]

Pattern testing my Mossberg 500 from the bench with turkey loads...(even with a past recoil pad under my jacket) was a teeth rattling experience. Once I settled in on WW 3" 1 3/4 oz. #5's I bought a bunch so I don't have to go through that again. I have enough ammo for the next 30 years or so of turkey hunting.
Bench testing anything seems to make the recoil way worse. The recoil of those rounds never bothered me at all shooting turkeys.

I wasn't bench testing, just sitting on a stool. The way I would be hunting.

 

[Jeff H]

With the intro of the 6.5 Creedmoor, I thought the Magnumitis craze was over. Strange how after one more powerful than the last cannon was being introduced over the past 30 years, now about the only thing one can find is rather mild compared to traditional cartridges like the '06.

Good point.

I was thinking the same, with all the craziness over all the puny cartridges designed to fit into an AR15 magazine - any of which are very cool, buy the way, but rather "anemic" as compared to even the more moderate rounds available in the 57mm case, the 308 and 30-06 cases.

Talking to some of the people who buy this stuff based on their education thereof being solely from the advertising hype, many of them have no clue that the 6.5 Grendel and 350 "Legend" are actually not more powerful than the old, boring stuff us fuds are used to. I was hoping the general "biggest/baddest" affliction was on the wane, but I just don't think many think beyond the hype, like "fastest straight-wall cartridge" and the hoopla about 6.5 bullets having "better sectional density," when they're using the lightest bullets for the diameter - which doesn't yield the sectional density the 6.5s are famous for.

Whether it's "my dog's bigger than your dog," or "my dad can beat up your dad," the net result is the same - BS sells.

Nothing wrong with big magnums or puny AR cartridges - both are cool, both have mush usefulness. The missing element of objectivity makes either a target for ridicule when neither are rationally contemplated by their users.

 

[Rockydoc]

I have never cared for recoil. The only belted magnum I have ever owned shot a 140 grain bullet as the maximum weight. A 264 Win Mag. With that weight I have killed one elk and one mule deer. It was more than satisfactory.

My only other Magnum rifle is a custom Sako L461 222 Remington Magnum. Not over-bore at all. It is a heavy barreled varmint gun weighing 13 pounds loaded. No felt recoil. I have killed a few deer with it using Nosler 60 gr Partition Jacket and Sierra 55 gr Game King bullets.

Most of my "big game" has been white tailed deer and most of them were taken with 270 Win, 260 Rem, or 7x57 Mauser. The heaviest bullet 130 grains. I like to shoot 'em in the neck, so bullet weight, construction and velocity don't matter much. Location does. Practice matters.

 

[Glaciers]

Well according to Chuck Hawks recoil table at: https://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm
The 460 W is 99.6 pounds of felt recoil, a 470 N E is a mere 69.3 pounds. The only cartridges that exceed the 460 are the 577 & 600 NE. The 460 is a brute no matter how you look at it. I did not get bruised when I fired it, but I just don’t bruise hardly at all. Takes a car wreck.
458 mag. 62.4#
375 H&H. 37.6#
338 mag. 33#
300 Mag. 25.9
30-06. 20.3#
7mm mag. 21.7#
7x57. 15.5#
6x57. 12.7#
30-30. 11.0#
250/3000. 7.8#
223. 3.2#

I never cared for the recoil of the 300 mag but the 338 mag is more of a push.

 

[Glaciers]

Maybe true. But my .338 LM loaded up with a 300gr bullet still hits with the same energy at a mile as a 44 mag at point blank.

Yeah just drilling holes.

 

[Glaciers]

My Father gave me grief about liking 45-70’s and other 45 caliber rifles. So I did a little demonstration for him.
I always have a bunch of left over timber blocks lay around. So I set up a chunk at 50 yards and had him poke it with his 7mm mag. Drilled a nice hole, might have been a slight crack in the block.. next I shot another block with my 458 mag loaded with 350 Hornady’s maybe 2400fps, don’t remember. Split the block nicely in two. Third test block was a 45-70 405 grain at about 1900 out of my High Wall. Block jumped into the air and came down as kindling. Test luckily turned pretty dramatic, had CR thinking I knew what I was talking about.
Anyway the test did display different energy transfer with the different velocities, diameter, and bullet construction.
I’ve always liked the Hornady cup&core, then the up grade to interlocking design the came up with.

 

[richhodg66]

A few years ago, I bought a .458. Normally not my kind of thing, but the price was right and I had a set of dies lying around. Built on a 17 Enfield action, it's big, it's heavy and it's rather ungainly. Whoever built it as a young man in the 50s had dreams of going to Africa which never panned out and it was relegated to being a range toy (whihc it is quite good for). They set it up with a 2x Leupold long eye reliefe scope which leaves much to be desired, and it has the base to a Lyman receiver sight attached, I need to pursue getting that figured out, I'd rather have a good peep sight.

ANyway, I played around with it quite a bit from the bench. The old man had a bunch of the Lyman 500 grain RN bullets and I had quite a few various things I had cast up for .45-70. Among other stuff I got from Dad was quite a bit of AA8700 from when they were selling it dirt cheap in the '80s and I recalled where Dad told me he used it in .45-70, sometimes with a kicker charge and got good accuracy, but unburnt powder and soot. I figured, "why not?" and tried it. Magnum primers, heavy bullets and a good roll crimp and it's a hoot to shoot, recoil ain't bad, accuracy is pretty good at 100 yards, lots and lots of smoke with that inefficient powder and bullet lube, you'd think I was shooting black powder. Pretty fun times.

That rifle will never see the hunting fields, at least not with me, just too darn heavy and ungainly, I think it weighs 13 pounds. But it is fun. Has me looking around for a .458 now in some configuration that would be more useful to load down to sane .45-70 ballistics and actually use.

 

[Jeff H]

I once passed on a beautifully and conservatively sporterized 98 Mauser in 458 W. Might have been close to all of 8# with no scope - just a receiver sight. I WANTED it but couldn't rationalize having it. The old guy was done hunting and came all the way down to $300, just to put it into the hands of someone who appreciated what it was and how well it was done. I felt bad when I finally decided not to buy it and left his table at the show.

On the long drive home, too late to turn back, it hit me - it would have been a wonderful cats-bullet 45-70. The spirits of both Dumb and Dumber manifested themselves in one physical being that day - MINE.

 

[RicinYakima]

Well according to Chuck Hawks recoil table at: https://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm
The 460 W is 99.6 pounds of felt recoil, a 470 N E is a mere 69.3 pounds. The only cartridges that exceed the 460 are the 577 & 600 NE. The 460 is a brute no matter how you look at it. I did not get bruised when I fired it, but I just don’t bruise hardly at all. Takes a car wreck.
458 mag. 62.4#
375 H&H. 37.6#
338 mag. 33#
300 Mag. 25.9
30-06. 20.3#
7mm mag. 21.7#
7x57. 15.5#
6x57. 12.7#
30-30. 11.0#
250/3000. 7.8#
223. 3.2#

I never cared for the recoil of the 300 mag but the 338 mag is more of a push.

The problems with those tables is they are based on total energy and not speed of recoil. My 450 Watt Mangleum with 550 grain bullets and 12 grains of Unique is a real pussy cat off the bench. And it is going 1000 f/s approximately. The recoil impulse is so slow that I have to lower the scope 8 moa from the 405/1300 f/s hunting load.

 

[Ian]

That's why I prefer a .45 ACP handgun to a .40 SW: recoil pulse. The .40 beats my hands and wrists terribly after just a few shots while downrange it and the .45 do just about the same thing.

 

[todd]

One of the nice things with standard cartridges, is that they operate at velocities where non- premium bullets perform well. Thus, they offer less room for error when it comes to bullet choice. And your average hunter typically has limited insight in bullet performance.

Combine a warp- speed overbore cartridge with a weak bullet construct, and fire at a large animal at short (typical) range, and you have the recipe for blood- shot meat, and bullet failure.

i've learned with Nosler BT only take it up to 2700-2800fps, no matter what caliber. if you do that, the bullet will mushroom at close distances. if you go over 2800fps, be ready for lung soup with a side of heart pieces when you're up close. i was using my 270 win with a 130gr Nosler BT going around 3000fps. i killed alot of deer and their lungs and heart were like soup. the bullet was fragment and it never went out of the far side of the ribs. i killed a doe with the same cartridge at around 125+/- yards(2800+/-fps was the impact speed) and the BT expanded and went out the deer. i used a 6.5 Creedmoor with 120gr and 140gr Nosler BT at 2700-2800fps and they great at mushrooming on close up deer (50 yards and under).

Pattern testing my Mossberg 500 from the bench with turkey loads...(even with a past recoil pad under my jacket) was a teeth rattling experience. Once I settled in on WW 3" 1 3/4 oz. #5's I bought a bunch so I don't have to go through that again. I have enough ammo for the next 30 years or so of turkey hunting.
Bench testing anything seems to make the recoil way worse. The recoil of those rounds never bothered me at all shooting turkeys.

my dad had a Mossberg m835 in 12ga and it accepted the 3.5" shells. he also bought a mess of the 3.5 shells (6,4 2x6...). he then went to pattern the gun with i believe #4's. he sat down on the ground, aimed at the target paper (40 or so yards) and went bang. he didn't like it. as a matter of fact he said "my GD shoulder!!!" then i, being a smart-butt, tells him "its not that bad. gimme here, i'll shoot it." well, he wasn't lying, it hurt my GD shoulder!!!! lucky for him, the 835 accepted 2 3/4 and 3" shells. my dad passed away and now my brother has it and all of the 3.5" shells. the freak likes my dad's 3.5" shells.

Well according to Chuck Hawks recoil table at: https://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm
The 460 W is 99.6 pounds of felt recoil, a 470 N E is a mere 69.3 pounds. The only cartridges that exceed the 460 are the 577 & 600 NE. The 460 is a brute no matter how you look at it. I did not get bruised when I fired it, but I just don’t bruise hardly at all. Takes a car wreck.
458 mag. 62.4#
375 H&H. 37.6#
338 mag. 33#
300 Mag. 25.9
30-06. 20.3#
7mm mag. 21.7#
7x57. 15.5#
6x57. 12.7#
30-30. 11.0#
250/3000. 7.8#
223. 3.2#

I never cared for the recoil of the 300 mag but the 338 mag is more of a push.

the 378 and a 460 Weatherby was and still is a recoil magnet x10.

the 338 RUM was a rem m700 with a black "plastic"(which i hate!!!!) and i forget what scope, but i wished it had a push. it had a "smack yo momma to ground" kick!!! i'd take the 460 Weatherby any day. (well, not really. i am on blood thinners)

 

[Winelover]

BT's were known for blowing apart. As a result, Nosler eventually, redesigned those that were 30 caliber and up. IIRC.

 

[Jeff H]

That's why I prefer a .45 ACP handgun to a .40 SW: recoil pulse. The .40 beats my hands and wrists terribly after just a few shots while downrange it and the .45 do just about the same thing.

I'm glad to hear others say that. I've sworn for years that I could feel the difference. I have nothing against the "nine" or the "forty," and neither are "difficult" to shoot, but neither are as PLEASANT to shoot as the 45 ACP (regardless of what it's been renamed to). Now, I know it's not just my prejudices at play.

And... old-fashioned cup-n-core bullets - they're the berries. If I have to think too hard about how fast my bullet is going at some estimated distance to decide whether it will explode (too close) or "pencil-through" (too far), then I'm not enjoying, or even properly focusing on the task at hand. They seem awfully danged reliable at actual, realistic hunting distances for me, such that I wouldn't have to worry about that bit of it.

Not to seem too hypocritical about that proclamation - I haven't bought jacketed bullets for anything in over twenty years now - and have more than I need left, because I'm not using them. One of the reasons is that the selection of old-fashions and affordable bullets has diminished, and I have no use for anything any more exotic than maybe a Nosler Partition. The boutique bullets are great stuff, no doubt, but they take the fun out of it for me, and have begun to turn it into an expensive game of how much money you can spend. I'd prefer to just practice shooting more and spend more time getting closer to game. Just seems like a lot more rewarding experience than thinking that if I just buy the most expensive bullet, I've got a trophy in the bag.

 

[Ian]

I'm glad to hear others say that. I've sworn for years that I could feel the difference. I have nothing against the "nine" or the "forty," and neither are "difficult" to shoot, but neither are as PLEASANT to shoot as the 45 ACP (regardless of what it's been renamed to). Now, I know it's not just my prejudices at play.

I've been ridiculed mercilessly here for saying so, but I have the .40 an honest go in several different brands of semi-auto (even borrowed a friend's Glock for a bit) and they all do the same thing to me, not fun at all to shoot. Since I'm fortunate enough to live in a free country and have choices, I got rid of the M&P .40 (still have two of them in .45 ACP and they're pussycats) and finally sold off all of the dies and moulds, which is highly unusual for me as it's only the second gun I ever sold. My 1911s are my favorites still but the M&Ps are good pistols too; they pack a few more rounds and can be thrown in the console, door pocket, backpack, or waistband without a second thought about scratching the finish or getting grit in the slide.