burbank.jung
Active Member
Which of the two alloys is better for cast rifle bullets? I would think wheel weights while range scrap from the pistol range would be better for handgun bullets.
Wheel Weights vs Range Scrap
- Thread starter burbank.jung
- Start date
My range scrap is a mix of cast and jacketed handgun bullets. I had a few ingots tested many years ago, ran 1.5 Sb and .25 Sn.
I use it for about everything. Does really well for all my handgun bullets. If I want a little harder I have a whole bunch of monotype I can add at 10% to a pot.
Range scrap is very range dependent.
I use it for about everything. Does really well for all my handgun bullets. If I want a little harder I have a whole bunch of monotype I can add at 10% to a pot.
Range scrap is very range dependent.
fiver
Well-Known Member
range scrap can and is everything from swaged 3-5% antimony knurled bullets to 1% varmint rifle chunks, teracorp mag store bought cast stuff,
or a toonNN of 22lr bullets.
or Like Brad gets, a bunch of handgun jacket cores.
i kinda get them all and some 20-1 if i look in the right places at my range.
i used to sort, then i didn't care.
it seemed to always mix up to around 2.5% antimony, but the tin varied a bit depending, when it was all cut 50-50 with my ww's and leftover reclaimed shot etc.
i air cool my handgun type bullets and water drop my rifle stuff.
it's all mixed up into one real big [like 3-K lbs.] batch of alloy and is consistent from front to back no matter what ingot i pick up.[shrug]
the rest sits outside waiting to get the same treatment
or a toonNN of 22lr bullets.
or Like Brad gets, a bunch of handgun jacket cores.
i kinda get them all and some 20-1 if i look in the right places at my range.
i used to sort, then i didn't care.
it seemed to always mix up to around 2.5% antimony, but the tin varied a bit depending, when it was all cut 50-50 with my ww's and leftover reclaimed shot etc.
i air cool my handgun type bullets and water drop my rifle stuff.
it's all mixed up into one real big [like 3-K lbs.] batch of alloy and is consistent from front to back no matter what ingot i pick up.[shrug]
the rest sits outside waiting to get the same treatment
burbank.jung
Active Member
What value is ww lead? I assume it's harder and so can be used to cast rifle bullets
fiver
Well-Known Member
depends mostly on the vintage.
new stuff is meh whatever the indian dude had in the pile that day. [2-2.5% maybe some tin he didn't burn out]
before the 2-K's it was pretty consistent at bout 3% [and 1/2% tin, AS at .2-.25%] in the 70's it was bout 4% antimony and consistent at .5% tin and .25% arsenic.
the stick on's were straight lead with about .5% tin pretty consistently.
now? pretty much the same-ish as clip on ww's, maybe a little softer from time to time.
here's the thing.
3% antimony gives you about 12 BHN
6% antimony gets you all the way to 15BHN
it takes 12% to get to 20-22...
3% water dropped from the mold gets you 18-19 BHN pretty consistently.
see the big gain you get from a bunch of hard?
new stuff is meh whatever the indian dude had in the pile that day. [2-2.5% maybe some tin he didn't burn out]
before the 2-K's it was pretty consistent at bout 3% [and 1/2% tin, AS at .2-.25%] in the 70's it was bout 4% antimony and consistent at .5% tin and .25% arsenic.
the stick on's were straight lead with about .5% tin pretty consistently.
now? pretty much the same-ish as clip on ww's, maybe a little softer from time to time.
here's the thing.
3% antimony gives you about 12 BHN
6% antimony gets you all the way to 15BHN
it takes 12% to get to 20-22...
3% water dropped from the mold gets you 18-19 BHN pretty consistently.
see the big gain you get from a bunch of hard?
Spindrift
Well-Known Member
If you primarily shoot your cast bullets for practice and recreation, the exact composition of the alloy doesn’t matter much. As long as it gives good fill-out, is cheap and available in large quantities- all is good. A softer alloy will probably work best at lower load intensities than a hard alloy. But you don’t need much power to punch holes in paper.
The alloy composition matters when you try to achieve, say, a specific terminal ballistic behaviour at a specific velocity. Or push the limits with high velocity lubed cast.
The alloy composition matters when you try to achieve, say, a specific terminal ballistic behaviour at a specific velocity. Or push the limits with high velocity lubed cast.
CWLONGSHOT
Well-Known Member
I take CoWW ten times outta nine but dont refuse ANY lead.
CW
CW
Bret4207
At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
Most of what I shoot is cast from old (70's/80's) coww or pre-2K coww, say '95-'99. I should have been collection more, but I didn't, dumb move. My Bhn runs 13-15 across the whole spectrum when air cooled. I use the same alloy from 600 fps to over 2200 fps in handguns and rifles. Tried water quenching, waste of time. Relatively hard alloys have their place, but it's in specialized situations where you're pushing the limits of normal cast shooting. I don't think you would go wrong grabbing whatever you can find and mixing it all together and seeing what you have. Then you can juice the alloy for specific applications if needed- AFTER you learn how to fit the bullet and what it takes to do that.
There, that's 2 minutes writing wasted because you're hung up on Bhn and can't get past it. Good luck!
There, that's 2 minutes writing wasted because you're hung up on Bhn and can't get past it. Good luck!
Red Bear
Member
well you really cant tell what is in either . range lead can be anything but so can wheel weights. wheel weights contain lead tin antimony and arsenic in different amounts. range lead may be any hardness saw that some companies even use zinc for some loads. not sure which companies use zinc just remember reading somewhere. i use wheel weights for my rifles and water quinch for about 24 bhn. these may be to brittle if you hunt.
Dimner
Named Man
Timely thread. I just received my results back from XRF. I tried to blend all my range scrap together, but since there was over 400lbs of it, I had to lay it out in three batches. I sent 2 for testing.
Range Batch 1:
Sn: 0.4%
Sb: 3.1%
As: 0.0%
Pb: 96.5%
Range Batch 2:
Sn: 0.3%
Sb: 2.8%
As: 0.0%
Pb: 96.9
First, I am pleased that I blended it as well as it came out. Second, I'm surprised that my range scrap is basically equivalent to CWW nowadays except without the As. I also had two batches of CWW tested, and they are nearly identical as the range scrap. 0.5%Sn/2.7 to 3.0% Sb. So pretty much my alloy blending life has become far easier... Range Scrap plus enough tin to make me happy. Probably upto 1.5%.
Now the much needed and now you know the rest of the story....
All of this range scrap was sourced from an indoor range. There are leagues of adult and JR rifle that shoot 22LR. As well as pistol leagues. Bulls eye I think is one of them. And a few other formats of pistol league shooting that has acronyms for names. Can you tell I don't shoot pistol? Anyway, no center fire rifle calibers. Based on the Sb being around 3.0%, I'm wondering if there is a lot of cast bullet shooting. Next time I process a few buckets of scrap, I'm going to weight input vs output. I did have a gut feeling the past few buckets that I was getting more lead than I was expecting and less jackets.
P.S. what is the accepted standard for the order of denoting sn/sb/as/pb? I usually do it this way because that is the order in my alloy calculator.
Range Batch 1:
Sn: 0.4%
Sb: 3.1%
As: 0.0%
Pb: 96.5%
Range Batch 2:
Sn: 0.3%
Sb: 2.8%
As: 0.0%
Pb: 96.9
First, I am pleased that I blended it as well as it came out. Second, I'm surprised that my range scrap is basically equivalent to CWW nowadays except without the As. I also had two batches of CWW tested, and they are nearly identical as the range scrap. 0.5%Sn/2.7 to 3.0% Sb. So pretty much my alloy blending life has become far easier... Range Scrap plus enough tin to make me happy. Probably upto 1.5%.
Now the much needed and now you know the rest of the story....
All of this range scrap was sourced from an indoor range. There are leagues of adult and JR rifle that shoot 22LR. As well as pistol leagues. Bulls eye I think is one of them. And a few other formats of pistol league shooting that has acronyms for names. Can you tell I don't shoot pistol? Anyway, no center fire rifle calibers. Based on the Sb being around 3.0%, I'm wondering if there is a lot of cast bullet shooting. Next time I process a few buckets of scrap, I'm going to weight input vs output. I did have a gut feeling the past few buckets that I was getting more lead than I was expecting and less jackets.
P.S. what is the accepted standard for the order of denoting sn/sb/as/pb? I usually do it this way because that is the order in my alloy calculator.
I'm not knocking how anyone else does it, nor am I saying my way is better, but I don't fuss too much over the chemical composition of my mongrel "alloy."
I scrounge whatever the heck I can find. My base is 1990s and older wheel weights, but I can and do "soften it up" by going 50/50 with that and "pure" lead, like old foundry ingots, roof flashing, plumbing bits, etc. I have some stuff that is really "hard," which clatters and "tings" when I drop an ingot. I've found that if I cast that at a higher temp (like 800F) is casts just fine and shoots fine.
I have shot up to the mid 1800s (fps) using aluminum gas-checked/tumble-lubed bullets, very accurately and without leading, from the 222, 357 Mag and 30/30, in rifles using straight wheel weights - air cooled. I know some folks who would swear this isn't possible, but then I cast and shot much more successfully before being "educated" by such wise ones. I have slowly come back 'round to my old ways of casting with what I have, shooting it and determining if it's OK. It's almost always OK.
I may just be a lucky fool, but I use what I have and try to shoot as soft a bullet as I can get away with for everything. In other words, take whatever you can get and experiment. I don't know another single source outside of THIS forum for truly good information on the topic, so I agree with pretty much everything everyone else has said so far, but it doesn't change my tack o the topic of alloys - for ME in MY guns.
Wait, OK, there's one other source I do trust unquestionably, even though I don't do everything the way he does, and that's Glen Fryxell, on LASC, who is a member here also, so he's within that umbrella of trust for solid and objective information.
Take whatever "lead" you can get your hands on and try it - experiment. If you get lead that's not ideal or can't be blended into something useful, you can always trade it to someone making sinkers or in need of ballast for whatever. I know a guy who poured large coffee cans full of "lead" to make wheel weights for a garden tractor. He didn't need good ballistic alloy for that.
I scrounge whatever the heck I can find. My base is 1990s and older wheel weights, but I can and do "soften it up" by going 50/50 with that and "pure" lead, like old foundry ingots, roof flashing, plumbing bits, etc. I have some stuff that is really "hard," which clatters and "tings" when I drop an ingot. I've found that if I cast that at a higher temp (like 800F) is casts just fine and shoots fine.
I have shot up to the mid 1800s (fps) using aluminum gas-checked/tumble-lubed bullets, very accurately and without leading, from the 222, 357 Mag and 30/30, in rifles using straight wheel weights - air cooled. I know some folks who would swear this isn't possible, but then I cast and shot much more successfully before being "educated" by such wise ones. I have slowly come back 'round to my old ways of casting with what I have, shooting it and determining if it's OK. It's almost always OK.
I may just be a lucky fool, but I use what I have and try to shoot as soft a bullet as I can get away with for everything. In other words, take whatever you can get and experiment. I don't know another single source outside of THIS forum for truly good information on the topic, so I agree with pretty much everything everyone else has said so far, but it doesn't change my tack o the topic of alloys - for ME in MY guns.
Wait, OK, there's one other source I do trust unquestionably, even though I don't do everything the way he does, and that's Glen Fryxell, on LASC, who is a member here also, so he's within that umbrella of trust for solid and objective information.
Take whatever "lead" you can get your hands on and try it - experiment. If you get lead that's not ideal or can't be blended into something useful, you can always trade it to someone making sinkers or in need of ballast for whatever. I know a guy who poured large coffee cans full of "lead" to make wheel weights for a garden tractor. He didn't need good ballistic alloy for that.
Bret4207
At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Rockydoc
Well-Known Member
I have a number of questions:
What is your target?
What velocity are you seeking?
What cartridge and bullet?
Shooting low velocity large diameter bullets at paper is a lot less demanding of an alloy than high velocity smaller diameter bullets aimed at taking game animals.
JWFilips
Well-Known Member
I separate My range scrape in to jacketed and cast because I know the guys shooting cast have hard cast bhn 18 commercial bullets!
I smelt separately jacketed and commercial cast once smelted I use 2 to 3 ingots of jacketed alloy to 1 commercial cast alloy!
This gives me a bhn 11-12 alloy! for rifles
I smelt separately jacketed and commercial cast once smelted I use 2 to 3 ingots of jacketed alloy to 1 commercial cast alloy!
This gives me a bhn 11-12 alloy! for rifles
Dusty Bannister
Well-Known Member
I would think that if you are very concerned about the difference between range scrap and WW you might consider getting a long casting run of range scrap and pick out 50 of the best ones and set them aside. Then repeat with COWW for a large enough sample to give some valid comparison. The hardness will probably be pretty close. The as cast diameter and bullet weight might be factors. If you size and lube your bullets the as cast diameter is pretty insignificant. If you shoot handguns, the slight weight variation will have little effect. Long range shooting with a rifle, then the weight might be something to consider. Otherwise, Mix and match and go have some fun.
burbank.jung
Active Member
Paper but I want to develop a hunting bullet for fun.
As fast as posted on the Lyman Manual
7.7 in my Arisaka, 30/30 for my brother, and 7mm to plink with for my 7rm someday