Which mold material? How many cavities?
- Thread starter JimGnitecki
- Start date
RBHarter
West Central AR
1st week in June of 18.
JimGnitecki
Member
Today, I got a chance to get to the range and fire 8 groups with the .458" sized bullets. No detectable improvement or degrading of accuracy noticed, versus the .459" and .460" sizing already tried.
One more thing I can do with this weight range of bullets: Get a 45-70 case drilled and tapped to accept the Hornady OAL gage, OR do a chamber & throat cast, or do both, and see what I can learn about fit of the bullet into the throat at different COALs.
After that, I'm completely stalled on the accuracy issue with the 464g to 500g bullets, and will look seriously at trying a 400g weight range mold, in either brass or aluminum.
Jim G
One more thing I can do with this weight range of bullets: Get a 45-70 case drilled and tapped to accept the Hornady OAL gage, OR do a chamber & throat cast, or do both, and see what I can learn about fit of the bullet into the throat at different COALs.
After that, I'm completely stalled on the accuracy issue with the 464g to 500g bullets, and will look seriously at trying a 400g weight range mold, in either brass or aluminum.
Jim G
Mitty38
Well-Known Member
And I was avoiding using that word to describe "iron" bullet moulds.
Figured They might be machined out of Iron. That was produced using the Mehanite process. Also figured the were high in graphite content. Since solder does not stick to them. Even using an acid core flux. Don't ask How I know.
CWLONGSHOT
Well-Known Member
I really like brass molds. To me it's just a mark of quality. Growing up my father would never have an aluminum mold. He wanted it all steel or iron molds, and never had a brass mold that I know of. My grandfather had a brass mold, and that was a prize possession of his. I don't even know where that ended up.
Today I buy a combination of aluminum and brass molds. I haven't bought a brand new steel mold in probably 10 years. No particular reason I've bought many used iron molds. Never seem to buy a brand new one. I like at least three cavity molds. It seems I always cast for a little longer sessions to get the number of bullets I'd like and a two cavity just seems too slow.
I use LEE molds too and for the most part in the end, they work fine but almost always require work... Before they can be used. Usually all are fixable and end up working fine. The six cavities are far better than the two cavities. Simply because of the mass in the mold itself, the two cavities are simply too small. Yes, they do work as well but kind of in spite of themselves.
As for brands, my favorite would be accurate or MP. Pretty much equal either one. I would prefer accurate if they made hollow points but I do like MP molds a lot and I always buy brass and usually for cavities, from him. I seem to always buy aluminum, and 3 to 5 cavities from accurate. I have a few Arsenal molds as well and they've been very good as well. But side-by-side the Accurate are better.
I like NOE's molds as well. He does a nice job and I would say I'd prefer them to Arsenal but only in solid bullets. I don't care for NOE's hollow point design. It also works fine but it's delicate. Simply, casting with a heavy hand Can change your pins depth and make for a Fugly looking bullet.
Hensley and Gibbs is an older maker that are pure works of art on par with what I like from MP. What in steel/iron. I have four cavities and only 3-4 of them. I do have a seven and two, 10 cavity molds as well.
I'll lump lack Miller, Saeco and RCBS together because they're similar looking blocks. And they've all been very good quality casting very good bullets. RCBS seems to have a knack for bullet design. There isn't a single one that I have that hasn't been accurate and for the most part more accurate than, anybody else's.
Lastly, Lymans, of course, all iron in one, two and four cavity designs. We all know the shortcomings of Lyman molds while they're good quality. They're inconsistent through the years with the Cherry dimensions.
CW
Today I buy a combination of aluminum and brass molds. I haven't bought a brand new steel mold in probably 10 years. No particular reason I've bought many used iron molds. Never seem to buy a brand new one. I like at least three cavity molds. It seems I always cast for a little longer sessions to get the number of bullets I'd like and a two cavity just seems too slow.
I use LEE molds too and for the most part in the end, they work fine but almost always require work... Before they can be used. Usually all are fixable and end up working fine. The six cavities are far better than the two cavities. Simply because of the mass in the mold itself, the two cavities are simply too small. Yes, they do work as well but kind of in spite of themselves.
As for brands, my favorite would be accurate or MP. Pretty much equal either one. I would prefer accurate if they made hollow points but I do like MP molds a lot and I always buy brass and usually for cavities, from him. I seem to always buy aluminum, and 3 to 5 cavities from accurate. I have a few Arsenal molds as well and they've been very good as well. But side-by-side the Accurate are better.
I like NOE's molds as well. He does a nice job and I would say I'd prefer them to Arsenal but only in solid bullets. I don't care for NOE's hollow point design. It also works fine but it's delicate. Simply, casting with a heavy hand Can change your pins depth and make for a Fugly looking bullet.
Hensley and Gibbs is an older maker that are pure works of art on par with what I like from MP. What in steel/iron. I have four cavities and only 3-4 of them. I do have a seven and two, 10 cavity molds as well.
I'll lump lack Miller, Saeco and RCBS together because they're similar looking blocks. And they've all been very good quality casting very good bullets. RCBS seems to have a knack for bullet design. There isn't a single one that I have that hasn't been accurate and for the most part more accurate than, anybody else's.
Lastly, Lymans, of course, all iron in one, two and four cavity designs. We all know the shortcomings of Lyman molds while they're good quality. They're inconsistent through the years with the Cherry dimensions.
CW
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Bret4207
At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
Sounds like you need to "Lee-ment" your moulds- eg- there may be burrs holding the bullet in the cavity. You may want to look at this- http://www.castpics.net/subsite2/MoldMods/LeementingKitDocumentation.pdfI hear you about the mold temperature. But, the failure of the bullets to drop out of the mold without a fair bit of tapping occurred even when the mold was allowed to get hot enough to cause frosted bullets. The smoking seemed to help notably.
You could be right about cavities in the bullets, but I have been individually weighing bullets in batches of 40 to 50 at a time sample size, and my weight SD is about 0.2g and my weight ES is at or under 1%, which is as good as any of the commerically cast bullets I have bought for 45-70 and other calibers, so I don't THINK I have a cavities problem.
Your point about the powder coating making the bullets a bit too large to chamber is a very good one. You are correct that the Lee pass-through sizer only sizes the shank, not the ogive. And having done the admitedly necessarily "approximate" math to convert the extra 3 grains of weight added by powder coating the bullet, I figure I am adding roughly between .001" and .002" of THICKNESS, which translates to .002" to .004" of DIAMETER increase on the OGIVE. So, yes, this COULD be the underlying issue. I have some Lee Alox bullet lubricant on hand, so I COULD prepare a batch of bullets that includes half powder coated and half Alox coated. BUT, would the Alox be sufficient to prevent leading of the barrel at 1400 fps? If not, I won't even try Alox, as I have no desire to need to do a de-leading! I did that once, recently, when I tried shooting 405g commercially made bullets with conventional in-the-grooves lubricant, and created a huge barrel leading problem thta took 1-1/2 hours of chemicals and brushing to remove! Never again . . .
I will cast some more bullets in the next couple of days and try chambering with and without the powder coating, and compare any difference in COALs achievable. I'll need to also get a 45-70 case drileld and tapped by my gunsmith to accept the Hornady gage thta allows accurate measurement of COAL when the ogive touches either the rifling or the throat. That should provide some guidance.
Jim G
Until you section some bullets you'll never know if you have cavities or not. And a cavity that is only 1% of bullet weight can still throw it out, especially if ALL you bullets have cavities and you don't know it. If it's not the problem then you're back to Dr Manns issue of unbalanced bullets he played with 100+ years ago. There's also the possibility your bullets aren't traveling far enough at 100 yds to "go to sleep", that is steady down as they fly. IIRC that's a function of bullet, velocity and twist.
No doubt a fat nosed bullet will keep it from going as far into the chamber as a skinnier one. And yes, plain old alox/beeswax 50/50 will certainly prevent leading at 1400fps. It's worked for me at 2200+. But! A lot of that is dependent of bullet fit. Leading is pretty easy to remove with 4/0 steel wool and that won't hurt your barrel, It's what is used to polish your blued surfaces after all. I would use Lees "Mule Snot" Liquid Alox if that's what you have on hand. I'd use a good brand of bullet lube, the solid-er stuff. It's a cheap test.
I would try to stop using commercially cast bullets cast bullets as a benchmark of any kind. Most are way, way too hard and the lube used is often that crayon type crap that is used because it will stay in the lube grooves. They make them hard because people can't grasp that when it comes to cast, harder doesn't mean better and because hard bullets don't get dented up so easy. A high Bhn and colorful crayon type lubes are usually a certain recipe for leading!!! And if the commercial bullets you used were HARDCAST then it makes it that much harder to remove.
Bret4207
At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
Jim, I'm going to stop you right there and ask you why in heavens name you think you need a Bhn anywhere near that high for a 45-70 at 1400 fps?!!!!
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If smoking a mold helps at all the best it could be doing is covering up a problem. Makes far more sense to figure out the problem and fix it, that problem could well be mold temp. Consider the time you spent cleaning your mold and then the very first thing you do before casting with it is gunk it up? Really? I smoked a mold once several decades ago, won't be making that mistake again.
Keep in mind that not only a mold too cool will make bullets harder to remove but so does a mold that is too hot. The reason being is that as bullets cool, they shrink making them fall out of the mold, too hot and less and slower shrinkage.
fiver
Well-Known Member
i guess i'll toss another 2 cents into the mix here.
JMO.
but the OP is looking for a GOULD or a BROOKS mold and some 20-1 alloy for what he is trying to accomplish.
just another thought,,, annealing, and neck tension.
the 45-70 and long range is a pretty well established and known quantity.
but just like flinging rifle bullets at 24-2600 fps there are some rules, and the whole thing has to work as a system,,,, a repeatable and controllable system.
JMO.
but the OP is looking for a GOULD or a BROOKS mold and some 20-1 alloy for what he is trying to accomplish.
just another thought,,, annealing, and neck tension.
the 45-70 and long range is a pretty well established and known quantity.
but just like flinging rifle bullets at 24-2600 fps there are some rules, and the whole thing has to work as a system,,,, a repeatable and controllable system.
JimGnitecki
Member
Thank-you, CW! This kind of feedback on mold materials and makers is very helpful to me!
Jim G
JimGnitecki
Member
Thank-you for both the Leement guide and the solid advice in the remaining paragraphs of your posting! Lots to think about and try! One question: HOW do you "section" a bullet, without creating a lot of Lead that can contaminate you and your work area?
Jim G
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JimGnitecki
Member
I was following Richard Lee's advice in Modern Reloading. Since I am firing a 28,000 psi load, his forumla suggests a BHN = 21 or so. Now, I am detecting in some of the psotings on the forum that many forum members think Lee was wrong about this. And, apparently using powder coating lowers the required BHN dramatically. I am learning. My next batch of bullets will be cast with a BHN target of 16. That should enable me to fire lighter weight bullets at maybe 1600 fps without leading?
Jim G
JimGnitecki
Member
So you seem to be saying that the bullets should fall out without any trouble if I can find the right temperature for the mold to maintain. I'll experiment . . .
Jim G
JimGnitecki
Member
I ahve found that most of the "well established and known" is based upon using the Holy Grail Black Powder, not smokeless, and I am running Accurate 5744. In addition, pretty much ALL the "well estbalished and known" is based on using conventional lubricants, and especially SPG, while I really want to use powder coating.
So, I am finding that the "well established and known" is not very helpful to me!
Ian's postings on powder coating and bulelt fit have been much more helpful, but I am still struggling.
A buddy who lives in another Canadian province is going to mail me the correct tap to drill and tap a 45-70 case that was fired in my rifle, so that I can then use my Hornady OAL tool to find the COAL that just touches the rifling, so that I can then experiment with jump length. It will also enable me to find out if the bullet ogive is hitting the thorat somewhere before it hits the rifling, which I suspect might be the case, given the rifle's inability to chamber some bullets that either (1) are fat in the ogive, or (2) are loaded to the recommended COAL for that bullet. I'll have to hire my gunsmith to drill and tap the fired 45-70 case, as I lack the tools to do that properly (like e.g. a lathe, and a fixture to hold the case in perfect position without damaging it while it is being drilled and then tapped).
I am considering chamber/throat casting. But the presence of the Malcolm full barrel length scope on the rifle makes pouring Cerrosafe into the breech tricky, and my gunsmith has not done cerrosafe (he has done Sulfur casting, but that has the same pouring issues I would suspect, AND requires scrupulous post-casting cleaning. And with that scope on, pounding a chunk of Lead into the barrel seems abusive:
Removing the scope to do the job is out of the question, considering how much effort it took to get it so perfectly mounted: After the right gunsmith work, It NEVER shifts despite the brutal 45-70 recoil, and it's perfectly vertical to within 0.1 degree despite its sllde-during-recoil feature that protects it against recoil damage. (With the 500g 1400 fps loading, It actually stays in place in 3D space while the rifle moves back about 1.5 inches). This is a beautifully mature and reliable semi-authentic scope setup (except for the CNC vernier rear height adjustment that provides over 200 MOA of elevation change) that I dare not tamper with now!
Jim G
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Bret4207
At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
My best advice is forget Lee's recommendations. His stuff has been out there a good 20 years now and just doesn't pan out in real life. #1- Bhn doesn't tell you squat about the make up of your alloy, eg- I can give you the same Bhn from 3 different alloys or I can give you 3 different Bhn from one alloy. Bhn is NOT the secret to successful cast bullet shooting! Fit is. What you probably need is something a lot softer, like the 20/1 alloy Fiver mentioned and some work on fitting the bullet to the rifle.
Bret4207
At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
You cut it in half with a knife. If you have to you use a hacksaw. Unless you are snorting lead dust or licking your fingers after handle bare lead alloy you aren't going to get any lead related health issues. Sacrifice 10 bullets that appear to be really good and see if there are cavities. If not, now you know that wasn't the problem.
Bret4207
At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
If you are intent on using PC and not a traditional lube, then you will likely have to seek out a mould/moulds with noses designed with that in mind. It seems unlikely to me that you will be able to get an oversize nose into the leade without doing so...or using nose sizing dies. Just remembered them. They are out there but I frget which one of the custom mould makers offers them.
Nice rifle!
Nice rifle!
No need to section bullets. Weight variations, over a decent sample size, will tell you if you have voids.
Snakeoil
Well-Known Member
I've never thought much about this, but always wonder if the new mold (what few I've purchased) will drop the bullets easily. However, when I'm casting, and that tends to be a marathon event for me because I really had tedious tasks like casting bullets, I find that the bullets drop out nicely and then start to stick. From my limited experience, it appears to be temperature problem. I have blown into the cavities after dumping a batch and that has helped. So, this falls in line with what Rick is saying about too hot. The .30 and .32 cal molds I'm using are both 4 cavity alum molds. Since the molds release easily when I first start casting with a pre-heated mold, it would appear that the only variable is temperature. Although, I have found that contamination has gotten between the blocks at times. But this was on iron molds, not my aluminum molds. Not sure how that happens. Assume it is lead squeezing down the vent grooves when the mold it too hot.
When I bought my first modern mold, I noticed the option for a thermocouple hole. And I read here about some using a temp probe to monitor mold temp. At first I thought it was overkill. But I can see where that might help with finding the perfect temp for all the bullets to release every time. In my case, I find that if I just give the mold a moment to cool down, things start working fine again.