1st week in June of 18.You been living back East for 6 years now? My, how time flies.
And I was avoiding using that word to describe "iron" bullet moulds.i just throw my mehanite molds in the drawer and close it.
sometimes i even take them off the handles.
Sounds like you need to "Lee-ment" your moulds- eg- there may be burrs holding the bullet in the cavity. You may want to look at this- http://www.castpics.net/subsite2/MoldMods/LeementingKitDocumentation.pdfI hear you about the mold temperature. But, the failure of the bullets to drop out of the mold without a fair bit of tapping occurred even when the mold was allowed to get hot enough to cause frosted bullets. The smoking seemed to help notably.
You could be right about cavities in the bullets, but I have been individually weighing bullets in batches of 40 to 50 at a time sample size, and my weight SD is about 0.2g and my weight ES is at or under 1%, which is as good as any of the commerically cast bullets I have bought for 45-70 and other calibers, so I don't THINK I have a cavities problem.
Your point about the powder coating making the bullets a bit too large to chamber is a very good one. You are correct that the Lee pass-through sizer only sizes the shank, not the ogive. And having done the admitedly necessarily "approximate" math to convert the extra 3 grains of weight added by powder coating the bullet, I figure I am adding roughly between .001" and .002" of THICKNESS, which translates to .002" to .004" of DIAMETER increase on the OGIVE. So, yes, this COULD be the underlying issue. I have some Lee Alox bullet lubricant on hand, so I COULD prepare a batch of bullets that includes half powder coated and half Alox coated. BUT, would the Alox be sufficient to prevent leading of the barrel at 1400 fps? If not, I won't even try Alox, as I have no desire to need to do a de-leading! I did that once, recently, when I tried shooting 405g commercially made bullets with conventional in-the-grooves lubricant, and created a huge barrel leading problem thta took 1-1/2 hours of chemicals and brushing to remove! Never again . . .
I will cast some more bullets in the next couple of days and try chambering with and without the powder coating, and compare any difference in COALs achievable. I'll need to also get a 45-70 case drileld and tapped by my gunsmith to accept the Hornady gage thta allows accurate measurement of COAL when the ogive touches either the rifling or the throat. That should provide some guidance.
Jim G
Jim, I'm going to stop you right there and ask you why in heavens name you think you need a Bhn anywhere near that high for a 45-70 at 1400 fps?!!!!2. The batch of bullets that I cast using a formula (per the online BHN calculator that everyone uses) that SHOULD have delivered BHN = 21.5, matured over a period of just about 1 week to BHN 16 or so, and NEVER got harder than BHN 16! I cannot figure that one out, as I checked and rechecked the math on the formula. both the sample ingot and the sample bullets from that batch that I checked for hardness were stored at room temperature, in my home office, and both the raw and the pwoder coated bullets behaved identically in terms of BHN. A mystery . . .
I hear you about the mold temperature. But, the failure of the bullets to drop out of the mold without a fair bit of tapping occurred even when the mold was allowed to get hot enough to cause frosted bullets. The smoking seemed to help notably.
Jim G
Thank-you, CW! This kind of feedback on mold materials and makers is very helpful to me!I really like brass molds. To me it's just a mark of quality. Growing up my father would never have an aluminum mold. He wanted it all steel or iron molds, and never had a brass mold that I know of. My grandfather had a brass mold, and that was a prize possession of his. I don't even know where that ended up.
Today I buy a combination of aluminum and brass molds. I haven't bought a brand new steel mold in probably 10 years. No particular reason I've bought many used iron molds. Never seem to buy a brand new one. I like at least three cavity molds. It seems I always cast for a little longer sessions to get the number of bullets I'd like and a two cavity just seems too slow.
I use LEE molds too and for the most part in the end, they work fine but almost always require work... Before they can be used. Usually all are fixable and end up working fine. The six cavities are far better than the two cavities. Simply because of the mass in the mold itself, the two cavities are simply too small. Yes, they do work as well but kind of in spite of themselves.
As for brands, my favorite would be accurate or MP. Pretty much equal either one. I would prefer accurate if they made hollow points but I do like MP molds a lot and I always buy brass and usually for cavities, from him. I seem to always buy aluminum, and 3 to 5 cavities from accurate. I have a few Arsenal molds as well and they've been very good as well. But side-by-side the Accurate are better.
I like NOE's molds as well. He does a nice job and I would say I'd prefer them to Arsenal but only in solid bullets. I don't care for NOE's hollow point design. It also works fine but it's delicate. Simply, casting with a heavy hand Can change your pins depth and make for a Fugly looking bullet.
Hensley and Gibbs is an older maker that are pure works of art on par with what I like from MP. What in steel/iron. I have four cavities and only 3-4 of them. I do have a seven and two, 10 cavity molds as well.
I'll lump lack Miller, Saeco and RCBS together because they're similar looking blocks. And they've all been very good quality casting very good bullets. RCBS seems to have a knack for bullet design. There isn't a single one that I have that hasn't been accurate and for the most part more accurate than, anybody else's.
Lastly, Lymans, of course, all iron in one, two and four cavity designs. We all know the shortcomings of Lyman molds while they're good quality. They're inconsistent through the years with the Cherry dimensions.
CW
Thank-you for both the Leement guide and the solid advice in the remaining paragraphs of your posting! Lots to think about and try! One question: HOW do you "section" a bullet, without creating a lot of Lead that can contaminate you and your work area?Sounds like you need to "Lee-ment" your moulds- eg- there may be burrs holding the bullet in the cavity. You may want to look at this- http://www.castpics.net/subsite2/MoldMods/LeementingKitDocumentation.pdf
Until you section some bullets you'll never know if you have cavities or not. And a cavity that is only 1% of bullet weight can still throw it out, especially if ALL you bullets have cavities and you don't know it. If it's not the problem then you're back to Dr Manns issue of unbalanced bullets he played with 100+ years ago. There's also the possibility your bullets aren't traveling far enough at 100 yds to "go to sleep", that is steady down as they fly. IIRC that's a function of bullet, velocity and twist.
No doubt a fat nosed bullet will keep it from going as far into the chamber as a skinnier one. And yes, plain old alox/beeswax 50/50 will certainly prevent leading at 1400fps. It's worked for me at 2200+. But! A lot of that is dependent of bullet fit. Leading is pretty easy to remove with 4/0 steel wool and that won't hurt your barrel, It's what is used to polish your blued surfaces after all. I would use Lees "Mule Snot" Liquid Alox if that's what you have on hand. I'd use a good brand of bullet lube, the solid-er stuff. It's a cheap test.
I would try to stop using commercially cast bullets cast bullets as a benchmark of any kind. Most are way, way too hard and the lube used is often that crayon type crap that is used because it will stay in the lube grooves. They make them hard because people can't grasp that when it comes to cast, harder doesn't mean better and because hard bullets don't get dented up so easy. A high Bhn and colorful crayon type lubes are usually a certain recipe for leading!!! And if the commercial bullets you used were HARDCAST then it makes it that much harder to remove.
I was following Richard Lee's advice in Modern Reloading. Since I am firing a 28,000 psi load, his forumla suggests a BHN = 21 or so. Now, I am detecting in some of the psotings on the forum that many forum members think Lee was wrong about this. And, apparently using powder coating lowers the required BHN dramatically. I am learning. My next batch of bullets will be cast with a BHN target of 16. That should enable me to fire lighter weight bullets at maybe 1600 fps without leading?Jim, I'm going to stop you right there and ask you why in heavens name you think you need a Bhn anywhere near that high for a 45-70 at 1400 fps?!!!!
So you seem to be saying that the bullets should fall out without any trouble if I can find the right temperature for the mold to maintain. I'll experiment . . .If smoking a mold helps at all the best it could be doing is covering up a problem. Makes far more sense to figure out the problem and fix it, that problem could well be mold temp. Consider the time you spent cleaning your mold and then the very first thing you do before casting with it is gunk it up? Really? I smoked a mold once several decades ago, won't be making that mistake again.
Keep in mind that not only a mold too cool will make bullets harder to remove but so does a mold that is too hot. The reason being is that as bullets cool, they shrink making them fall out of the mold, too hot and less and slower shrinkage.
i guess i'll toss another 2 cents into the mix here.
JMO.
but the OP is looking for a GOULD or a BROOKS mold and some 20-1 alloy for what he is trying to accomplish.
just another thought,,, annealing, and neck tension.
the 45-70 and long range is a pretty well established and known quantity.
but just like flinging rifle bullets at 24-2600 fps there are some rules, and the whole thing has to work as a system,,,, a repeatable and controllable system.
My best advice is forget Lee's recommendations. His stuff has been out there a good 20 years now and just doesn't pan out in real life. #1- Bhn doesn't tell you squat about the make up of your alloy, eg- I can give you the same Bhn from 3 different alloys or I can give you 3 different Bhn from one alloy. Bhn is NOT the secret to successful cast bullet shooting! Fit is. What you probably need is something a lot softer, like the 20/1 alloy Fiver mentioned and some work on fitting the bullet to the rifle.I was following Richard Lee's advice in Modern Reloading. Since I am firing a 28,000 psi load, his forumla suggests a BHN = 21 or so. Now, I am detecting in some of the psotings on the forum that many forum members think Lee was wrong about this. And, apparently using powder coating lowers the required BHN dramatically. I am learning. My next batch of bullets will be cast with a BHN target of 16. That should enable me to fire lighter weight bullets at maybe 1600 fps without leading?
Jim G
You cut it in half with a knife. If you have to you use a hacksaw. Unless you are snorting lead dust or licking your fingers after handle bare lead alloy you aren't going to get any lead related health issues. Sacrifice 10 bullets that appear to be really good and see if there are cavities. If not, now you know that wasn't the problem.Thank-you for both the Leement guide and the solid advice in the remaining paragraphs of your posting! Lots to think about and try! One question: HOW do you "section" a bullet, without creating a lot of Lead that can contaminate you and your work area?
Jim G
I've never thought much about this, but always wonder if the new mold (what few I've purchased) will drop the bullets easily. However, when I'm casting, and that tends to be a marathon event for me because I really had tedious tasks like casting bullets, I find that the bullets drop out nicely and then start to stick. From my limited experience, it appears to be temperature problem. I have blown into the cavities after dumping a batch and that has helped. So, this falls in line with what Rick is saying about too hot. The .30 and .32 cal molds I'm using are both 4 cavity alum molds. Since the molds release easily when I first start casting with a pre-heated mold, it would appear that the only variable is temperature. Although, I have found that contamination has gotten between the blocks at times. But this was on iron molds, not my aluminum molds. Not sure how that happens. Assume it is lead squeezing down the vent grooves when the mold it too hot.Keep in mind that not only a mold too cool will make bullets harder to remove but so does a mold that is too hot. The reason being is that as bullets cool, they shrink making them fall out of the mold, too hot and less and slower shrinkage.