You do the leg work, not me !!!!!

Ben

Moderator
Staff member
Seems that a lot of young reloaders get on forums and want you to offer them load data. This is often times for cartridges, powder, and bullet weights that are very common and literally fill reloading manuals. The latest request I read is for the 30-30 with a 170 gr. cast bullet. Just how much data is out there for that combination ? I'd say a couple of tons. These young reloaders don't know how much data is available to them, because they have not looked ! ! !

There is a wealth of loading data available to everyone now.
Catch is, these people seem too lazy to look it up and and want you to do it for them.

Before I get involved, I'd like to see some evidence that they have made an effort themselves to obtain reliable reloading data.

Ben
 
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358156 hp

At large, whereabouts unknown.
I've had a number of them on the other site pretty much demand the information in the past. Just give me the information I want. So I quit answering questions, took my marbles and went home.

BTW, I lost my marbles long ago, has anybody here seen them?
(Not you, Brad)
 

CZ93X62

Official forum enigma
The possession of all of your marbles is greatly over-rated.

I'm a little obnoxious when these entitled types start demanding data and recipes. I suggest that they find themselves data published by powder or bullet manufacturers rather than obtain it from unknown strangers on the internet, being mindful that they are setting off combustion sequences within inches of their eyes that run 18K-62K PSI.
 

smokeywolf

Well-Known Member
I think there is a belief by some of the folks who went through school using the internet as their library (as opposed to actually going to the library) that, 'I don't have to search for answers to my questions anymore. I type my question, click my mouse, and the answer should come to me.'
These folks are missing out on a huge amount of knowledge gained during the search for the answer to the original, specific question.
 
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Jeff H

NW Ohio
How someone has come to obtain knowledge, skill and experience is generally offered very little respect any more. Greed and a general lack of consideration for others pervades and "they" want what you have, regardless of how hard you may have worked for it. I see it as being no different than an addict robbing his grandmother of her paltry life's savings to blow on a single "night out." It is really a pretty savage attitude.

I could understand someone having made an effort by acquiring any of the completely free guides offered by the powder companies and looking up every article they could find and THEN asking about personal experiences relating to which powders have worked better for you. To a degree. I've burned a LOT of powder over the years, set off a LOT of primers and sent a lot of projectiles through targets (lots of time and money) to earn the knowledge I have on the topic. I'm always willing to share, but a greedy grab makes me really stingy really quickly.

A similar attitude: I still use a blackboard at school - with real chalk. When I start a class, I start drawing on that board. I evolve the concept verbally and visually and it's this PROCESS - the metamorphosis of the concept from "blank slate" to something seemingly digestible, which is key in making the point. I EXPECT anyone who cares about learning to go to the trouble of replicating, with pencil and paper, what I go to the trouble of putting up there myself. At the end of the class, I erase it all and start over for the next class, up to five times per day.

A week or so ago, a young man walks up front after class and holds his phone up to take a picture of the board. "Oh, no you don't!" I made him put the phone away and I explained that I am sharing personal intellectual property for the sake of his being able to make a very good living for the rest of his life and that he was going to WORK for it. I could as easily draw it all once and hand out a piece of paper or post it on the course page, but then he (anyone) would give it a casual glance and miss all the detail and not appreciate how it all came to be. If HE had to work for it the way I worked for it, he would HAVE TO capture all the minor details to replicate it manually on paper. I was pretty ticked off about the lack of regard for the effort, but he did surprise me and acknowledged that it made sense. He sat down and drew it all himself.
 

hporter

Active Member
as opposed to actually going to the library
That made me laugh - as I wondered to myself the other day if young people even know what the Dewey decimal system is. Ha ha.

The modern world seems a bit foreign to my way of thinking, with the constant expectations of instant gratification.

I spent my childhood saving my lawn mowing money to go to the second hand book store with my mother. I bought and collected every copy of the old 1940's and 1950's American Rifleman magazines that I could get my hands on. My mother despaired of my bedroom smelling like musty old magazines, but I was in heaven reading and re-reading them again and again. Of course that fascination has repaid itself with a life long love of everything to do with guns and reloading. And of course, I still love reading a good book on guns...
 

Jeff H

NW Ohio
I think there is a belief by some of the folks who went through school using the internet as their library (as opposed to actually going to the library) that, 'I don't have to search for answers to my questions anymore. I type my question, click my mouse, and the answer should come to me.'
These folks are missing out on a huge amount of knowledge gained during the search for the answer to the original, specific question.
Doesn't even dawn on many that they are carrying the Internet around in their pocket and COULD look anything up, any time, anywhere. I used to tell my kids "look it up!" all the time. They'd scurry off to find the twenty-pound encyclopedic dictionary and look it up.

When I tell someone to do that today, I get a blank look and I have to remind them that that little miracle in their pocket is FULL of answers.
 

Ben

Moderator
Staff member
It is the quick, fast, easy way that appeals to them ( with you doing all the research for them ) .
 
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462

California's Central Coast Amid The Insanity
I remember, at that other place, a guy with the attitude exactly as has been described, and he was wanting load data. He was told several times to get a reloading manual. His replied that he doesn't have any need for one, because it takes too much time to search for stuff and he relies only on the Internet. I wonder, now, if he still has all his body parts.
 

Ben

Moderator
Staff member
I wonder, now, if he still has all his body parts.
Maybe, maybe not..............
-----------------------------------------------------
The fact that we don't have more " blow ups " today, is a real testimony to the gun manufacturers and their metallurgy / engineering depts.
 
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Ian

Notorious member
but he did surprise me and acknowledged that it made sense. He sat down and drew it all himself.

This hits on what I was thinking reading through everyone's rants. Sure, some are arrogant little spoiled pricks with an entitlement grudge cultured from birth by snowflake parent(s?), but I think many youngsters asking for load data are decent people who have been totally robbed of any teaching or experience about HOW to actually learn something on their own. Blame the systems or whatever, but some new reloaders just have no idea how to go about it, have honestly never actually read a book (much less a technical instruction guide), and are comoletely clueless about what they're even asking. Also, keep in mind what you know about society regulating, demonizing, and legislating away responsibility for dependence and empty people is what you get; that doesn't automatically make them bad, just sadly empty of life.
 

JWFilips

Well-Known Member
The crazy thing to me is: load data is truly meaningless with cast bullets! Every gun is an individual, Every gun needs a certain size cast bullet ( not the supposed caliber's size) Where should the bullet be on chambering? I start mine on the lands! That is where I start my load work up!
No one can give me Load Data for any bullet / caliber or powder that I would be comfortable with....unless I work it out myself!
For one: No one Can "GOOGLE" my loads ....this stuff is not Jacketed bullet territory!
I for one, I start all my COL's to engrave on chambering! Then build my most accurate loads from that point! Once I reach it I can back off the COL ( which become safer PSI wise but 95% of the time I don't mess with a good load! I shoot fat cast bullets! Try to explain that to a guy on the internet that wants a load for his .243 win that he has sized .243" cast bullets......... in my .243 wins I shoot .246" cast bullets Firmly seated into the lands on chambering! All my loads are very safe, considering I shoot all my rifles "Low Node"

These guys are not smart enough to understand any of this! They just want a quick Load to shoot ....I would rather they stay with jacketed and a modern jacketed bullet load hand book!
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
They grew up with Siri. Blurt out a question and get an answer.
I deal with it all day at work.

I agree with Ian. They didn’t learn to search for an answer the way most of us did. Truly a generation gap.
 

JonB

Halcyon member
I enjoy giving advice, I suspect we all do...at least in some form.
I tend to give suggestions, as opposed to answers, to the load data requests. Most times they will mention the powder they want to use and mostly, it's not the best powder for the application...So my suggestions are what powder I'd use for that application. There are many sources for data online (published and unpublished), and I'll give 'em a link to where to find relevant data, if I have it handy...most times it's a link to a discussion thread, because these questions have been asked hundreds of times already.
that's my 2¢
 

RicinYakima

High Steppes of Eastern Washington
If they are too cheap to buy loading manuals, and too lazy to read, I don't have anything for them. Over the last 30 years I have written about 100 articles that have been published. I am very selective about giving them out, after some showed up on the internet in the late 1990's. Having been asked to have them made into a "book" on the internet, I have refused and will continue.

If you want something, you have to work for it.
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
hey, whats the BEST?.....
just reading that makes me want to snap my keyboard in half.

if i tell you what the best 'everything' is your gonna need a third job to order up that hydraulic swaging press, lathe turned solid brass cases, and brass bullets.
about 50-60K might get you going on equipment and a box full of components.
oh you just want to shoot your new 300$ creedmore rifle with the bushnell 3x9 on top of it at 1 moa or less at 1000 yards.
well why didn't you say so, that's easy, first get in your golf cart and drive 950yds. closer.
 

Ian

Notorious member
Having been asked to have them made into a "book" on the internet, I have refused and will continue.

Good on you. Lemme guess....ahhh, the professional bullet casting forum data miner? My new PC don't have a CD drive, and unless he's paying royalties to the sources which I know he isn't and never did, he can pound sand.
 

462

California's Central Coast Amid The Insanity
Is he still stealing stuff and "publishing" it as if it's all his findings? Joe Somebody?
 
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Bret4207

At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
Good on you. Lemme guess....ahhh, the professional bullet casting forum data miner? My new PC don't have a CD drive, and unless he's paying royalties to the sources which I know he isn't and never did, he can pound sand.
The Data Miner!!! The arguments I had with that clown still upset my stomach. "Little variables don't mean anything." Except his own photo essays showed they did!!! ARRRRGHHHHHH!!!!

I think Ian hit the nail on the head in post #12- They don't know HOW to learn. Step 1 is "I want to be able to __________." Step 2, for them, is "Someone explain, preferably in video form, exactly how and promise me instant success...for free!" I don't think they are incapable, they've just never had to puzzle out things for years and go through the hits and misses...way more misses than hits too! They don't know how to look up things beyond You Tube either. YT/Rumble/etc is great, don't get me wrong, but it's not the same as reading the words in a book/on a screen and having to THINK. It's become a giant game of "Simon Says" for them. Yes, it's a lot easier to have some guy in a video show you how Part A and B go together than it is to read a Xeroxed sheet saying "Take to put piece A for mouth of cavernous hole to part B to enjoy happiness" (Yes, I've assembled many Made in China projects!). But WHY you put A and B together in a certain manner is usually lost on them. Thinking things through, that 3D movie in your head mentioned the other day, that's the part they have trouble with.

BTW- Can I shoot a bullet made for a gas check without a gas check? ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
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