CW's favorite handgun

Rick said:

Will be no 380 in my future. Years ago I saw a video where they proved a good winter coat was an effective bullet proof vest against the 380. Soured me forever on that cartridge.

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Didn't see the video, but well aware of the concept. As I am in the South, I don't expect a heavy coat in the Summer. A 380 vs a t-shirt should work. My "Winter" gun is a S&W Shield 45. And as it's getting colder hear now need to break it out

CWLONGSHOT said:

As the 9mm boys like to proclaim. Bullet "advances" make the 9mm far better then it has been previously. Well as many others say, those "advances" do not only benefit the 9mm.

Even the lil 380 enjoys them! Lehigh Defense has designed a few projectiles that help all calibers with there fluid technology Extreme Defense and Extreme Penetrator.

CW

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The Fed were behind the development of the 9mm "super" bullets. They were fumbling about in typical Government fashion after Miami trying to find a solution to stopping power in a controllable package after being let down so miserably by 9mm. In typical Government fashion, they went overboard in one direction, then in a couple of other directions. All 9mm had going for it was mild recoil. So they experimented with "+P", then "+P+" with conventional 9mm bullets before starting the great super bullet competition for 9mms only.

A lot of the new or upgraded designs were found unsuitable, so even more money was thrown at the project until the current superbullets were finally delivered. Then added perks were offered for "barrier blind" bullets as well (another story). So we're left with Gold Dot, HST, Critical Duty, Ranger, and Golden Sabre. Everything else is left in the dust, including former death ray designs like Hydra-Shok, XTP, Silvertip, Hi-Shok, and others. I admit to being curious how a properly designed cast HP in 30-1 in powdercoat would perform in that group. Of course expansion and penetration test only count if you use the exact FBI designated gel media.

358156 hp said:

They were fumbling about in typical Government fashion after Miami trying to find a solution to stopping power in a controllable package after being let down so miserably by 9mm.

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Not exactly true.
They [The FBI] were let down by poor tactics and had to blame something else for the failure. So they blamed the cartridge.

Then they had to find a suitable replacement cartridge and it could not be an exisiting cartridge because that would lead to the question: "If a better cartridge existed, why was it not utilized"?

The result was the downloaded 10mm and that begot the 40 S&W.

I am well aware of the single 9mm round that failed to penetrate deep enough to stop the fight. However, the focus on that one round is misplaced. The agents had only one long gun in play, although better weapons were available. Only two agents of the 8 were wearing body armor. While that armor would not have been adequate to stop the .223 rounds it would have helped defend against the other ammunition used by the criminals. Two agents lost their guns before the fight started. Several agents delivered ineffective fire and missed their targets. Cover was poorly used, partially due to the poor coordination of the initial vehicle takedown. Overall communications, including with local LE was poor or non-existent.

It is regrettable that good men died but the focus on the “failure” of a single 9mm round is disproportionate to the failures of the tactics employed.

If I remember correctly the 9mm round in the Miami shoot out (9mm Winchester Silver Tip?) preformed almost exactly as the FBI had specified in there testing protocol. The round that stopped short of the bad guy's heart first passed thru his upper arm, but the overall penetration was what the FBI had specified. And didn't the agent that lost his primary pistol because he placed it on the seat beside himself before the car hit the fugitive's vehicle also lose his glasses? The Miami shootout was a tragedy. If I understand it correctly though the FBI's tactics that day were a bigger issue than ammo, ammo made a better scape goat though.

358156, Ancient history again but back in the late 1970's early 1980's one of the better expanding 9mm loads was the S&W Nyclad ammo. Basically, pure lead hollow point with a thin nylon coating to counter leading. It wouldn't surprise me much if your 30-1 powder coated turned out to do surprisingly well in today's test media.

elvis ammo has a video on the u-tube showing what a slightly modified 30-1 alloy hollow point bullet will do in his home made/store bought? gel stuff.
it's in 38 and in a 357, but the user wanted very little penetration [aka avoid over penetration] he still got about 14"s

I do not wish to deprecate the good men that were wounded and killed that day. However, in the wake of that horrible event the FBI did not go scrambling around to find a better performing cartridge. Quite the contrary, in an effort to divert the attention away from the poor tactics employed, the FBI very deliberately focused on finding a suitable replacement cartridge. And there was no way that replacement cartridge was going to be some type of existing loading.

The agents knew they were hunting violent, armed felons. One of the agents actually observed one of the criminals loading a magazine into a long gun (Mini 14) just prior to the engagement.

Two of the agents lost their primary weapon before the gunfight even started. Only two shotguns loaded with 00 Buck were available and only 1 of those guns was accessible (although it was later put to good use). The vehicle takedown was poorly planned and even more poorly executed. The communication between the agents was almost non-existent.

The agents were armed with a combination of revolvers, pistols and one Remington 870. The revolvers were chambered in 38 Special and 357 magnum. The pistols were 9mm pistols.

A LOT of chatter has been generated over the years about the alleged “failure” of the 9mm round in that fight. It certainly would have turned out better if that one round had penetrated a little father but that has little to do with the dozens of 38 Special and 9mm rounds that failed to hit their intended target.

Petrol & Powder said:

The agents were armed with a combination of revolvers, pistols and one Remington 870. The revolvers were chambered in 38 Special and 357 magnum. The pistols were 9mm pistols.

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was this in like 1936?
they had already learned this lesson chasing Clyde Barrow around.

david s said:

If I remember correctly the 9mm round in the Miami shoot out (9mm Winchester Silver Tip?) preformed almost exactly as the FBI had specified in there testing protocol. The round that stopped short of the bad guy's heart first passed thru his upper arm, but the overall penetration was what the FBI had specified. And didn't the agent that lost his primary pistol because he placed it on the seat beside himself before the car hit the fugitive's vehicle also lose his glasses? The Miami shootout was a tragedy. If I understand it correctly though the FBI's tactics that day were a bigger issue than ammo, ammo made a better scape goat though.

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All correct

fiver said:

was this in like 1936?
they had already learned this lesson chasing Clyde Barrow around.

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1986
Miami, FL

Farmers chasing Clyde were better shots?

Rick said:

No Eskimos around here, not even an igloo.

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Then what is your big fear of people in winter coats? Is there a lot of sub zero weather in Arkansas that brings out criminals in multiple payers of leather and wool? Judging by the news in my area that DOES have months where 0F can be the high, I have more to fear from people in hoodies than Woolrich.

I'll tell you this about the 9mm. The 147 sub sonic "FBI Load" was absolutely garbage. I have seen them fail to penetrate, for several shots!, at 15-20 feet range. Something about the bullet shape just made them glancers. The +P+124 Gold Dot (I think) we went to after that was much better but still abysmal compared to the reliable old 357 158 JSP. The 124 stuff failed in a shoot out and one of our guys died because of it. Then we went to a 45, the 45 GAP to be exact. Why? It was a little shorter so the midgets we hired didn't have to stretch so much to reach the trigger...and Glock gave a significant discount I'm told. Being able to say a State Police agency uses the 45Gap was good advertising. Time passed, the GAP died,and all those guns were replaced by Glock 45ACPs.

Anyhoo, my point is that when going in harms way you can never have too much gun, except when Division tells you that you'd best be happy with whatchagot, which is what happens to cops all over the country. 22, 380, 38, 9, 40, 10mm, 44 or 45. I'd be a lot happier having at least 1 of them, if not 2 or 3!, if I were back working the road!!!!

yeah.
50 years later they went right back to what didn't work.

and then go oh that didn't work.
again,,, just like last time it didn't, only now we gotta spend a couple million dollars to work our way back around to what worked.
hey! i know,, let's duplicate what skeeter recommended 25 years ago only different.

Bret4207 said:

Then what is your big fear of people in winter coats? Is there a lot of sub zero weather in Arkansas that brings out criminals in multiple payers of leather and wool? Judging by the news in my area that DOES have months where 0F can be the high, I have more to fear from people in hoodies than Woolrich.

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So . . . I have a big fear of winter wear. I guess that's good to know because I didn't know it. I will keep it in mind though.

I have never fired a 40 cal handgun. No plans to start now.
I like the 9mm and the 45. Each has a place.

Caliber wars are meaningless and unwinnable.

Two words.....Hatcher's IRSP.

Petrol & Powder said:

Caliber wars are meaningless and unwinnable.

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I think that is their attraction to many folks.

Haven't really seen a caliber war here. Just folks mentioning their preferences.