45-70 paper patch, first results.
- Thread starter Pb2au
- Start date
My own 45-70 PP experiments were with a a borrowed Tom Ballard tapered , cupped base mould. Patched, only about 1/4" bullet was in the case and loaded rounds were easily thumbed into my Ruger #1. I don't recall the powder charge, but it was Goex ffg compressed, and recoil was obnoxious. It shot a ragged hole group at 100 yards. I recall using a grease cookie sandwich under the bullet and a blowtube between shots to keep fouling soft.
Use a 18-24" droptube and trickle the powder into the cases, with enough volume to account for 1/8" compression and still seat the GC sandwich and bullet. The PP needs to extend over the ogive so that it isn't shredded when chambering. High cotton content paper or vellum is preferable for PP. Oh yeah, RP 2-1/2 pistol primers!
Use a 18-24" droptube and trickle the powder into the cases, with enough volume to account for 1/8" compression and still seat the GC sandwich and bullet. The PP needs to extend over the ogive so that it isn't shredded when chambering. High cotton content paper or vellum is preferable for PP. Oh yeah, RP 2-1/2 pistol primers!
Pb2au
Active Member
@ Fiver,
I still agree 1000000% that the vasoline was my enemy in my last lube. I just decided for now to go with SPG lube as it seems to engender a lot of success in both grease grove bullets and as lube cookies under the bullet. For sure not saying that home made lube won't work, I just decided to use the SPG as a baseline for now.
@300BLK,
I set up with drop tube that is about 20-ish inches, and it seems to settle the powder pretty well.
The compression thing kept nagging at me from the get go, as my experience with muzzle loaders taught me that BP likes a bit of it. Other sources, you included, reinforce it now for cartridge work.
Pistol primers you say? That is interesting. I am curious as to how you arrived to using pp for this....
Many thanks as usual for the info, thoughts and consideration!
I still agree 1000000% that the vasoline was my enemy in my last lube. I just decided for now to go with SPG lube as it seems to engender a lot of success in both grease grove bullets and as lube cookies under the bullet. For sure not saying that home made lube won't work, I just decided to use the SPG as a baseline for now.
@300BLK,
I set up with drop tube that is about 20-ish inches, and it seems to settle the powder pretty well.
The compression thing kept nagging at me from the get go, as my experience with muzzle loaders taught me that BP likes a bit of it. Other sources, you included, reinforce it now for cartridge work.
Pistol primers you say? That is interesting. I am curious as to how you arrived to using pp for this....
Many thanks as usual for the info, thoughts and consideration!
Pb2au
Active Member
Best description ever of stout recoil.........
I hadn't considered the use of a blow tube either. I think I definitely will for the next go round.
noob here
been shooting BPCR since 1991. GG and PP
Brent Danielson's website, and go from there , he pretty much found out how the ODG did it
http://www.public.iastate.edu/~jessie/PPB/
if you are not hunting, ditch the grease cookie,
are you shooting bullets patched to bore diameter or groove diameter ?
powder, most GOEX likes compression
shooting PP bullets with BP will test your willpower, when they work it's really fun
learning to read the patches is paramount
been shooting BPCR since 1991. GG and PP
Brent Danielson's website, and go from there , he pretty much found out how the ODG did it
http://www.public.iastate.edu/~jessie/PPB/
if you are not hunting, ditch the grease cookie,
are you shooting bullets patched to bore diameter or groove diameter ?
powder, most GOEX likes compression
shooting PP bullets with BP will test your willpower, when they work it's really fun
learning to read the patches is paramount
Ian
Notorious member
Last time I made some BP lube I actually modded that a bit to be more like Emmert's and cut the lanolin back to 5 and replaced what I deleted with Canola oil. Main reason was to help out that loooooong Sharps 45/90 with GG bullets and a second reason was to soften it so I could use it for everything BP: Patch grease, cylinder grease, etc. Works great and I had better luck with it than SPG, but that's not saying SPG is no40" good, because it is good, though it isn't nearly sticky or soft enough to handle for my tastes.
I only paper-patched the Sharps for smokeless powder using 20:1 alloy and a thin film of soft beeswax/vaseline on the patch. That was wet-patched, too, and core sized just a fuzz larger than bore diameter, patched snug to the long, gentle throat. With black I used 40:1 (ish) grease-groovers and sized to fit the throat. Worked great to 300 yards, never shot it past that. Out to 1000 is a whole 'nuther ball game from what I hear and what little I know and have done might mean squat at that range.
I only paper-patched the Sharps for smokeless powder using 20:1 alloy and a thin film of soft beeswax/vaseline on the patch. That was wet-patched, too, and core sized just a fuzz larger than bore diameter, patched snug to the long, gentle throat. With black I used 40:1 (ish) grease-groovers and sized to fit the throat. Worked great to 300 yards, never shot it past that. Out to 1000 is a whole 'nuther ball game from what I hear and what little I know and have done might mean squat at that range.
Pb2au
Active Member
For the 1000 yard game is not on my list. We have too many trees, hills, cows and barns in the way here in SW Ohio.
Northern Ohio is another story. Pretty much a pool table, with soybeans and the occasional silo in the way.....
In Friendship Indiana, they have a nice silhouette range there. I think it pushed out pretty darn far... But that is in the future. I still need to get the basics sorted out...
I did acquire some lanolin recently, and for sure will mix up a batch of lube. 1), cuz I am about out of my ML lube, and 2) It would be a good learning experience.
Northern Ohio is another story. Pretty much a pool table, with soybeans and the occasional silo in the way.....
In Friendship Indiana, they have a nice silhouette range there. I think it pushed out pretty darn far... But that is in the future. I still need to get the basics sorted out...
I did acquire some lanolin recently, and for sure will mix up a batch of lube. 1), cuz I am about out of my ML lube, and 2) It would be a good learning experience.
Pistol primers and BP? Range time! Load testing with various primers led me to that conclusion rather than follow Garbe and Venturino's red herrings (magnum primers and over primer wads). I put 350# of lead and nearly 40# of BP through one Shiloh Sharps in one year.
I never liked SPG as it would melt if cartridges were subject to a warm day. Too, I had tried other lubes and thought that they kept fouling softer. Lee Shaver's BP moly lube was good stuff if you pan lubed with it, but like SPG, it would "bleed" oil in the lubrisizer.
Good BP lube can be made with beeswax as the base carrier, anhydrous lanolin, and any of a variety of oils. More lanolin than fiver and Ian are mentioning can and does work. One recipe that comes to mind is in proportions by weight, 7-3-3. Beeswax, anhydrous lanolin, and Dexron III ATF or Mobil 1 full synthetic 15W-40. Both of these work very well, but the ATF version will hold more moisture in the barrel (blowtube) to the point that it can be too much on very humid days.
While I don't have that previously mentioned Tom Ballard PP mould, I had one cut to emulate the military .43 Mauser bullet. I disassembled an 1885 vintage military cartridge and got my dimensions there. The .43s had very deep rifling, and the naked bullet was just over bore diameter, and patched to just under groove diameter. The resultant PP was expected to be loaded into a fouled bore, and the rifling guaranteed to slice through the PP. I've also PPed 45cal pistol bullets and shot them over smokeless in a Marlin 45-70. Somewhere here in my mess is a couple of boxes of Winchester PP bullets, 40cal, I think.
I never liked SPG as it would melt if cartridges were subject to a warm day. Too, I had tried other lubes and thought that they kept fouling softer. Lee Shaver's BP moly lube was good stuff if you pan lubed with it, but like SPG, it would "bleed" oil in the lubrisizer.
Good BP lube can be made with beeswax as the base carrier, anhydrous lanolin, and any of a variety of oils. More lanolin than fiver and Ian are mentioning can and does work. One recipe that comes to mind is in proportions by weight, 7-3-3. Beeswax, anhydrous lanolin, and Dexron III ATF or Mobil 1 full synthetic 15W-40. Both of these work very well, but the ATF version will hold more moisture in the barrel (blowtube) to the point that it can be too much on very humid days.
While I don't have that previously mentioned Tom Ballard PP mould, I had one cut to emulate the military .43 Mauser bullet. I disassembled an 1885 vintage military cartridge and got my dimensions there. The .43s had very deep rifling, and the naked bullet was just over bore diameter, and patched to just under groove diameter. The resultant PP was expected to be loaded into a fouled bore, and the rifling guaranteed to slice through the PP. I've also PPed 45cal pistol bullets and shot them over smokeless in a Marlin 45-70. Somewhere here in my mess is a couple of boxes of Winchester PP bullets, 40cal, I think.
IIRC, the lube with ATF was referred to as Pink Stink
I have used the Mobil 1 formula with reasonably good results, on Grease Groove bullets
I do not use any lube on my paper patches
when using PP bullets I have found bore pigs work best...Buffalo Arms sells a bore pig set-up
I bought the bottom part with the o-ring wiper and use a nylon brush instead of the felt washers sold with the kit
drop them in a bucket with water, use a bore mop to dry the chamber if it gets wet
SW Ohio...I'm in NE Ohio
my favorite ML Lube is 40% BW, 40% Mutton Tallow, 20% Canola oil...or just straight Canola Oil on the patch
I do wipe between shots with the straight oil, with the Tallow lube you can shoot dirty
I have used the Mobil 1 formula with reasonably good results, on Grease Groove bullets
I do not use any lube on my paper patches
when using PP bullets I have found bore pigs work best...Buffalo Arms sells a bore pig set-up
I bought the bottom part with the o-ring wiper and use a nylon brush instead of the felt washers sold with the kit
drop them in a bucket with water, use a bore mop to dry the chamber if it gets wet
SW Ohio...I'm in NE Ohio
my favorite ML Lube is 40% BW, 40% Mutton Tallow, 20% Canola oil...or just straight Canola Oil on the patch
I do wipe between shots with the straight oil, with the Tallow lube you can shoot dirty
I never heard the ATF formula referred to that way. My own batch used Texaco Dexron III, and didn't have much odor, but that was 15 years ago. I know another guy who made it with some other brand of ATF, some full synthetic I think, and it was stinky and more towards the orange color. One of the guys used the ATF formula with smokeless loads in his 30-30 and said it worked well. The remainder of mine has been used as the base of a smokeless lube that works pretty well, but it will melt, Ian.
I'm sure that there are lots of oils that would work well in BP lube. Looking at the properties of each might lead you to the correct choice. Soap making suppliers generally have good selections of oils and waxes with descriptions of properties. Castor oil, avocado oil, and jojoba oil (actually a wax) are a few that come to mind.
Paul Matthews advocated cooking the patched bullets in beeswax so as to waterproof them. I never did that but did wipe some with lube. You don't want to put anything on the patch that will soak or soften it.
I'm sure that there are lots of oils that would work well in BP lube. Looking at the properties of each might lead you to the correct choice. Soap making suppliers generally have good selections of oils and waxes with descriptions of properties. Castor oil, avocado oil, and jojoba oil (actually a wax) are a few that come to mind.
Paul Matthews advocated cooking the patched bullets in beeswax so as to waterproof them. I never did that but did wipe some with lube. You don't want to put anything on the patch that will soak or soften it.
Paul was a really nice guy, I spotted for him when he set the record of 59 pigs
he shot left eyed, right handed, shot 30's all the time, could not shoot ofhand
a side note, I believe he passed recently
I think the "Pink Stink" come from the person who come up with it being ragged on
in the early days there was a lot of banter among the shooters
Paul was using BW, NFO, Lan in different percentages, till he come up with the soap lube
I used it for awhile, but the Mobil 1, worked best for me
never liked SPG...in the early 90's there was a lot of concoctions..all seemed to work somewhat
most did not, out west with 7% humidity
Pb2Au
if you are not too far from Pittsburg, Mcdonald has registered BPCR matches the first Saturday of the month till Nov.
he shot left eyed, right handed, shot 30's all the time, could not shoot ofhand
a side note, I believe he passed recently
I think the "Pink Stink" come from the person who come up with it being ragged on
in the early days there was a lot of banter among the shooters
Paul was using BW, NFO, Lan in different percentages, till he come up with the soap lube
I used it for awhile, but the Mobil 1, worked best for me
never liked SPG...in the early 90's there was a lot of concoctions..all seemed to work somewhat
most did not, out west with 7% humidity
Pb2Au
if you are not too far from Pittsburg, Mcdonald has registered BPCR matches the first Saturday of the month till Nov.
Paul Matthews obituary
http://www.morning-times.com/obituaries/article_42a94b5a-4e6e-5c6b-91df-7d300dd37382.html
I think I was using Paul's soap lube when I ran 18 rams with a 38-55 back in '99. The record then was 20.
http://www.morning-times.com/obituaries/article_42a94b5a-4e6e-5c6b-91df-7d300dd37382.html
I think I was using Paul's soap lube when I ran 18 rams with a 38-55 back in '99. The record then was 20.
Pb2au
Did you ever get the PP to work?
I shot a CBA postal #22, BPCR...Turkey reduced for 200yds..all NRA rules apply
I am shooting a 38-50 Rem..with a Rem. Hepburn 1-12 twist
Shot PP for the scope and iron sights, shot bore dia for the scope and groove dia for the irons
did OK not spectacular, once I figured out where to hold I started to group
the groove dia bullets shot best for me
I was using bore pigs for fouling control
I bought the plastic buttons with o-ring on them from BACO, and I used nylon brushes instead of the felt they sell
bronze core brushes were the cheapest from the mfg, Dewey
picture if I remember how
Did you ever get the PP to work?
I shot a CBA postal #22, BPCR...Turkey reduced for 200yds..all NRA rules apply
I am shooting a 38-50 Rem..with a Rem. Hepburn 1-12 twist
Shot PP for the scope and iron sights, shot bore dia for the scope and groove dia for the irons
did OK not spectacular, once I figured out where to hold I started to group
the groove dia bullets shot best for me
I was using bore pigs for fouling control
I bought the plastic buttons with o-ring on them from BACO, and I used nylon brushes instead of the felt they sell
bronze core brushes were the cheapest from the mfg, Dewey
picture if I remember how
Pb2au
Active Member
Still on process, just work has buried me for the last month and a half. My coworker quit, so my workload literally doubled.
I'm going to work on the powder compression tool tonight and tomorrow. Casting bullets tonight as well.
My window for shooting got closed two weekends ago, as the weather was miserable.
Anyway, I appreciate your info, it is going in the mental toolbox
I'm going to work on the powder compression tool tonight and tomorrow. Casting bullets tonight as well.
My window for shooting got closed two weekends ago, as the weather was miserable.
Anyway, I appreciate your info, it is going in the mental toolbox
