45 ACP - Second opinion requested

CZ93X62

Official forum enigma
It is a whole lot safer to use and load a 44 Magnum to 44 Special levels than the other way around. There are those folks that enjoy "Pushing the envelope", and I don't want to deprive them of their recreational pursuits. I do prefer that they conduct those pursuits somewhere other than in my vicinity.

I was re-reading the data found in the Feb. 2017 issue of Handloader magazine ("Pet Loads--45 Auto Rim +P", pp. 32) and saw some data for 45 AR that ran a 200 grain commercial SWC into the 1.100 FPS bracket. I respect writer Brian Pearce's knowledge and experience, but I don't think that a 45 AR cartridge has any business running 200 grain castings into the 1100 FPS ZIP Code. The old IPSC "Major caliber" standard of Power Factor 175 was easily met in 45 ACP via the 200 grain bullet running 900 FPS (PF = 180). The PF equation was Bullet Weight (in grains) X Velocity (FPS)/100.

I shoot a lot of 200 grain castings in my 45 ACPs (Lyman #452460 and the Lee H&G #68 plagiarism) at 900-1000 FPS. At 1000 FPS, recoil impulse is similar to that of my carry loads, which send a 230 grain JHP out at 875-900 FPS. At 900 FPS, the 200 grainers have a bit less recoil but the 16# recoil spring in the Colt Gold Cup enables reliable functioning. These ran well in my SIG P-220 and Glock 21, also--though the Glock had the SWC feeding hiccup I spoke of earlier and elsewhere. No failures, but a noticeable "hitch". FYI.
 
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Bret4207

Northern NY
Rick, this is heresy in some places, but I don't get the Cooper worship that abounds. He wrote as "The Gunners Guru" and took himself way to seriously. Seems like others do also.
I think you'd be hard pressed to find an author of any brand that doesn't take themselves a bit too seriously. I had an interaction with a pretty well known gunwriter 15 years back of so and his ego was beyond belief. "I happen to be a published author!!!!", he told me, like that meant he was beyond reproach. My dealings through private messaging with Ayoob were even worse. Seems to come with the territory.
 

Charles Graff

Moderator Emeritus
I think you'd be hard pressed to find an author of any brand that doesn't take themselves a bit too seriously. I had an interaction with a pretty well known gunwriter 15 years back of so and his ego was beyond belief. "I happen to be a published author!!!!", he told me, like that meant he was beyond reproach. My dealings through private messaging with Ayoob were even worse. Seems to come with the territory.
I think you'd be hard pressed to find an author of any brand that doesn't take themselves a bit too seriously. I had an interaction with a pretty well known gunwriter 15 years back of so and his ego was beyond belief. "I happen to be a published author!!!!", he told me, like that meant he was beyond reproach. My dealings through private messaging with Ayoob were even worse. Seems to come with the territory.
When they die, they join some kind of pantheon. We now have Cooper, Elmer and Skeeter worship.
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
it's because of the good old days syndrome.
we naturally tend to focus only on the few good memories from the bad times things to us were almost always better than they really were.
how many of us ate lets say hot dogs so much as kids we couldn't force ourselves to eat one when we got older and was buying our own food.
then as we get older we eat hot dogs and remember sitting out on the curb eating them as a kid watching the traffic go by.
kind of the same thing with old gun writers we associate them with laying on the rug or sitting in the Barbour shop or whatever. [during ''happier'' times]
 

Outpost75

Active Member
When I was a young NRA staffer one of my first field assignments was covering the first National Metallic Silhouette championships held at the Three Points Gun Club outside Tucson, AZ. NRA Director and noted gunsmith Roy Dunlap, took me under his wing and introduced me around. During the course of the match I was scoring for Col. Chas. Askins. During one of the stages Askins had an ND in which he shot a round into the dirt in front of his feet as he closed the bolt. I yelled "MISS~!" as he opened the bolt and ejected the case and glared at me. "I want an alibi!" he said.

I replied, "The rule book states a round fired is a round scored. No alibi."

Dunlap, who was the line judge walked over and then spoke to Askins, "Furthermore Colonel, I am declaring your rifle unsafe. You have three minutes left to finish your string. If you have another rifle I would advise you to get it, or be dis-qualified."

Askins grumbled and returned a minute later, rushed firing off his next four rounds, knocking down only one ram out of five.

At the cocktail party that evening Askins walked up to me and said, "You got some balls, Kid, do you know who I am?"

I said, "Yes Sir, you are that back-shooting bastard from Texas, that Roy warned me about, who gives no alibis and therefore gets none."

Roy Dunlap overhears this and breaks out in a hearty belly laugh. "Dammit he got you Charlie!"

Askins then turns to Roy and says, "Sergeant Dunlap, I bet that you'd walk all the way to San Antonio just to urinate upon my headstone!"

Roy then laughs and says, "No Sir, Colonel Sir, I swore when I got out of the Army I'd never stand in line again!"
 
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462

California's Central Coast Amid The Insanity
Thank you, Outpost75.

I've never read Askins, and from the several writings I've read about him I've no intention of ever doing so.
 

USSR

Active Member
Well, they ain't all bad. When I was a young fella in the late 70's, I wrote a letter to Guns & Ammo Senior Editor Elmer Keith asking about his favorite loads for the .357 Magnum and the .30-06. He actually took the time to type me a letter with his favorite loads. Still have that letter, and man, was he a terrible typist.

Don
 

RicinYakima

High Steppes of Eastern Washington
Askins's autobiography Unrepentant Sinner is probably pretty accurate. He was definitely a man-killer and would go out of his way to do it. He loved shooting things from quail to horses his whole life.

I was able to take Keith to breakfast one morning in Salmon, ID, and he was a friendly as his reputation. He was opinionated and a name dropper, but was nice to a young man who had read all of his books. I lost the letter he wrote me to convince me to re-barrel my NM '03 to .338 Winchester.
 
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Outpost75

Active Member
Well, they ain't all bad. When I was a young fella in the late 70's, I wrote a letter to Guns & Ammo Senior Editor Elmer Keith asking about his favorite loads for the .357 Magnum and the .30-06. He actually took the time to type me a letter with his favorite loads. Still have that letter, and man, was he a terrible typist.

Don
Agree! His handwriting was worse. When I interviewed for an editing position at NRA I was given a hand-written manuscript to edit and type up.
I didn't know it at the time, but it was one of Keith's from the 1950s. I cleaned it up, but maintained the folksy style. Ash Halsey hired me.
Keith mentored me when I first was hired at NRA and also later at Ruger. A pleasant and entertaining old cuss. Also enjoyed being with John Wooters, Bob Millek, Bill Jordan, Les Bowman, Rick Jamison, Jim Carmichael. All fine gentlemen and great sportsmen.
 

Outpost75

Active Member
Outpost - I grew up reading all the stuff those guys wrote or was written about them. Only met Bill Jordan.
I was fortunate to have met them at various NRA Annual Meetings, SHOT Show, and when I worked for Ruger WBR, Sr. would invite small groups of writers to his farm in New Hampshire to hunt, shoot, and enjoy social gatherings in the fall, where I shared host duties with several others from engineering, marketing, and the various factory departments, depending upon the featured product being introduced. Keith was quite the wing shot and a master of the duck tower. Only Bob Brister was better. Another charming fellow and the best wing shot I ever saw.
 
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CZ93X62

Official forum enigma
Let's be fair here. The firearms hobbies don't attract Shrinking Violets, as a general rule. Most of us are opinionated and often obstinate to season that first descriptor. I think it just comes with the avocation.

The only gunwriter I have ever met was LTC Jeff Cooper, and I've spoken of him here previously. He was polite, well-spoken, and was genuinely supportive to a 16-17 year old kid that put gas in his Porsche and into his wife's Mercedes. Over the years, we had at least a dozen conversations--some quite lengthy--about hunting, mostly. Mind you, I had no idea that he was a noted authority on pistolcraft at that time (1971-72), or that he had the first Gunsite in Big Bear Lake. I think it was Mrs. Cooper that told me he was a gunwriter, actually; he worked for either Guns or Guns & Ammo at the time, so I picked up a copy soon afterward. OK, NOW THE LIGHTS ARE ON. He had a presence about him, for sure--but he was always kind to this kid that gassed up his cars. He just reveled in hearing hunt stories, and related his own to me--which were far greater adventures in which he took great joy in sharing. He seldom spoke of the kills, but of the sights and smells outdoors, the skills of the PHs and trackers, and the feelings such experiences evoked. He always asked when I greeted him on the pump islands--"Have you done any hunting since last time?" or something to that effect. I often had, and that produced a few minutes of back-and-forth. I was greatly saddened at his passing.
 
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Brad

Administrator
Staff member
Doesn’t attract shrinking violets? Understatement of the year right there.

That is part of why disagreements on firearm forums get so heated. Get a group of hard nosed, opinionated people together who are quite certain that they have all the answers and what else would you expect?
 

CZ93X62

Official forum enigma
CAUGHT.

I still have a lot more questions than answers, and I have been stuffing hulls and brass for 50 years. I have been pouring bullets for almost 40 years, and know a little bit about it--but still there are more questions than answers.

Yeah, "Confidence". That feeling you have just before learning the whole story.
 

RBHarter

West Central AR
Experience . Its that thing you get about 10 seconds after you needed it .

Digressions about what it takes to kill a deer cleanly and/or sufficiently dead .......

Tissue disruption methods/results vs the number set used to determine if a satisfactory number is present on paper to do the work in the field .......... If I had a dime for every time I'd have liked to type at the top of my lungs "you maroons do realize your debating the same side of the argument at 6° of separation ?"

Let us not leave out the latest rendition of my wonder cartridge makes your choice old fashioned , obsolete , and ineffective on anything bigger than a deer mouse .
 

Rick H

Well-Known Member
I read Cooper and his opinions and work about "Pistol Craft" as well as his many columns in Guns & Ammo. As a young patrolman who found himself in a scrape or two and had become less than enamored with my service revolver I wrote him with the account of my experiences and ensuing discussions with Werner Spitz about handgun wounds and stopping power. Dr Spitz was our county Medical Examiner and literally wrote "the book" on Forensic Pathology. LTC. Cooper was kind enough to write me back, with solid advice. His views were backed up by those of Dr. Spitz as well.

I don't worship Cooper but do hold him in much higher esteem than most of the current crop of wordsmiths....Ayoob & Marshall, et all
 
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