45 ACP - Second opinion requested

RBHarter

West Central AR
Dear mouse ? :rofl:

It's a cousin to a field mouse . It's the one with the bulgy eyes , and Haunta virus carrier .

For a change spell check didn't mess things up .......it's had issues with "of" and "or" most recently . I finally convinced it canalure and meplat were actual english words . Now to work on yore and raze .
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
So spell check tends to raze your yore? People of yore would have raised something about your raze.
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
My take on gun writers, experts, and such is that I often don’t use my handguns for the same purpose as them so why would I use the same loads?
I don’t need the Skeeter load for 44 special to perforate cans and paper so I use a lower velocity load that fits my needs.
I don’t hold anything so dear in Shooting that I’m not willing to entertain a change.
 

RBHarter

West Central AR
Brad ,
all I ask is that we start in the early morning rays of sun to raise the barn the was razed in the fire .

The thing about folks that suffer with which , witch is which and there , their , and they're is that that they may in fact be razing 2 children too .

American is such a lovely linguistic adventure .
 

358156 hp

At large, whereabouts unknown.
I figure current speel cheker programs are originating in India. Color vs colour, vise vs. vice, and everybodys favorite sprue vs. spruce are great examples. Although there is an "American English" listed, America doesn't have an official language. And the line above with everybodys, and everybodies, that both highlight as misspelled. Then of course are the hyphens. Everytime a spell checker gets confused anymore it wants to throw a hyphen in. Wassup wid dat?
 

CZ93X62

Official forum enigma
Mark Twain--"Damn a man that can only spell a word one way!"

I was a very happy camper when my shop added the 45 ACP to its authorized caliber list in early 1987.
 
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Bret4207

At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
When they die, they join some kind of pantheon. We now have Cooper, Elmer and Skeeter worship.

Well, I simply enjoy Elmers and Skeeters writing style. They were good story tellers. There used to be a good number of gun type writers that were good story tellers, that made their articles interesting just to read as much as for whatever technical advice might be there. Some of todays gun writers that spend most of their time selling whatever product they're hawking don't even compare. I suppose I take a small part in the "worship" of guys like Elmer, Skeeter, Francis Sell, Dean Grennel, Whelen, Sharpe, Waters, etc. I enjoy their prose, even if I don't follow their recipes precisely. For that matter, I've read and re-read a article titled, "452423, I Love You!" many, many times. I don't "worship" the author, but I think he's a pretty good writer! ;)
 

Bret4207

At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
My take on gun writers, experts, and such is that I often don’t use my handguns for the same purpose as them so why would I use the same loads?
I don’t need the Skeeter load for 44 special to perforate cans and paper so I use a lower velocity load that fits my needs.
I don’t hold anything so dear in Shooting that I’m not willing to entertain a change.


IMO, as with so many things we need to put what was written/done/thought in the period that it was done. When Skeeter (or especially Elmer) were writing a lot of their stuff, you couldn't just walk into a store and buy a 357 or 44 mag, much less get effective and well balanced, safe factory loads. Hi Vel (Super Vel? I forget) was the only game in town in the 60's and to this day I've ony ever seen one partial box of their ammo. So, working up a hotter load for the old 38 or 44 Special was just what you had to do. I'd wager none of us would want to be a street cop with a 4" Smith or Colt using standard velocity 38 RN today, or a 44 Special RN either. None of us would likely choose a standard 45ACP 230 jacketed RN either. The reason we have the vast variety of ammo and better bullets today is because of guys like Skeeter, Elmer, etc. You got to give credit where credit is due.
 

Charles Graff

Moderator Emeritus
I knew Bill Jordan quite well, as we shot skeet at the same club and ran into each other out on the River a time or two. I was in high school at the time. He always had time for a kid. Later as a young lawyer, I ran into him again at the NRA Convention is Dallas. He had drinks together and were joined by Elmer Keith and some other folks whose names I don't recall.

I met Col Askins a couple of times in San Antone and he was always polite, even courtly, but never warm. I disliked him from his writings, for numerous reasons. I doubt I will see him in Heaven.

I only met Skeeter once in the hospital in El Paso, but he was circling the drain at the time. I did know his wife Sally when I lived in Deming NM and a finer woman you will never meet.

When I was in high school my highest goal in life was to work in R&D for Winchester. I wrote to them asking what kind of education I would need to do that. They wrote back listing the engineering education I would need. I was not a science and numbers guy, so I got a degree in Speech and Drama and went on to Law School. After some years as a lawyer, I went back to Seminary for another three years of graduate education. Still, I admire those folks who made a living working and writing in the firearms field. It was my life goal, one for which I was poorly equipped by nature. "A man has to know his limitation".
 

Charles Graff

Moderator Emeritus
Bret, when I was a youngster, most of what was said about the 45 ACP round came from WWII vets and was mostly myth and scuttlebut. I heard it said that if you hit a man in the ear with the round, it would break his neck, obvious horse manure. I also heard it it said that the round was a poor man stopper at it was dril a smaller through and through hole.

It took Jeff Cooper to reintroduce the post-war shooters to the round and the pistol as an effective combat round. For that he deserves much credit.
 

RicinYakima

High Steppes of Eastern Washington
Descriptions of .45 ACP wounds, not for the squeamish.

Having seen several enemy shot with Thompsons and M3's in Viet Nam and half a dozen while a firefighter/medic. They were all hit with hardball, .45 is not an end all be all. The little 120# Asians didn't have much meat on them and if hit usually the bullet struck bone and the round was authoritian. If just gut shot, it only made a little slit that was survivable. Here in the States it was more likely for 175 to 250 pounders to be hit in the flesh and bones missed.

Outside a bar one night a guy shot his girl friend and she fell on her back on the concrete sidewalk. He put the next 7 into her chest and they passed through and spalled concrete and bullets ricocheted back into her body. .45's penetrate.

Strangest 45 shooting was a very large man with the entrance wound just nicking the bottom left collar bone. There was maybe 20 cc's of blood on the outside. We did CPR and put 3 units of fluid into him from the time we got there and the 10minute ride to the hospital; pronounced DOA. This was about 1975 and as a young medic, I attended the autopsy, trying to improve my skills and see why he died with not much showing. The bullet has glanced down after hitting the bone and turned 75* down and punctured the lung front to back. Bounced off the ribs in the back and punctured same lung back to front, through the liver, right kidney and came to rest against the right femur neck.

From my view, round nose hardball bullets have no rhyme nor reason why they take the path they do.
 

RBHarter

West Central AR
Rick that mirrors what the Hacksaw ridge Vet said . Sans the color of his story the fellow engaged him from about 30 ft wearing something like a baseball Umpire chest pad up to his neck . 2 shots the first stopped his forward motion and the second took him off his feet with substantial fluid leaks . High chest hits . The rest of his description of the event could only happen in the place and time and if even .00001 out of context would be cold , disconnected , and complimented by barbaric in terms of First Crusades gore .
 

CZ93X62

Official forum enigma
45s and 40/10s tend to take only 1 or 2 installations to get the point across to the recipient. There is a lot to like about the 45 ACP.
 
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Bret4207

At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
I knew Bill Jordan quite well, as we shot skeet at the same club and ran into each other out on the River a time or two. I was in high school at the time. He always had time for a kid. Later as a young lawyer, I ran into him again at the NRA Convention is Dallas. He had drinks together and were joined by Elmer Keith and some other folks whose names I don't recall.

I met Col Askins a couple of times in San Antone and he was always polite, even courtly, but never warm. I disliked him from his writings, for numerous reasons. I doubt I will see him in Heaven.

I only met Skeeter once in the hospital in El Paso, but he was circling the drain at the time. I did know his wife Sally when I lived in Deming NM and a finer woman you will never meet.

When I was in high school my highest goal in life was to work in R&D for Winchester. I wrote to them asking what kind of education I would need to do that. They wrote back listing the engineering education I would need. I was not a science and numbers guy, so I got a degree in Speech and Drama and went on to Law School. After some years as a lawyer, I went back to Seminary for another three years of graduate education. Still, I admire those folks who made a living working and writing in the firearms field. It was my life goal, one for which I was poorly equipped by nature. "A man has to know his limitation".

HAR!!! Wonder how many others caught that humor? Good one.
 

Bret4207

At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
I must have touched a nerve mentioning 45 hardball. I have no desire to be shot with one, but the fact remains that I'd put money on any of us picking something in the HP offerings if we were to have to carry one for social purposes.

FWIW, I knew some old USBP guys that worked with Bill Jordan down south back in the day. Their first observation was that he was an enormous man, very tall with large hands. 2nd was that he put a few rounds into the floor or walls over the years practicing. Did that myself showing off one day, so I can give him break. Still enjoy his writings.
 

Charles Graff

Moderator Emeritus
I must have touched a nerve mentioning 45 hardball. I have no desire to be shot with one, but the fact remains that I'd put money on any of us picking something in the HP offerings if we were to have to carry one for social purposes.

FWIW, I knew some old USBP guys that worked with Bill Jordan down south back in the day. Their first observation was that he was an enormous man, very tall with large hands. 2nd was that he put a few rounds into the floor or walls over the years practicing. Did that myself showing off one day, so I can give him break. Still enjoy his writings.
About 1968 I bought Bill's old house with one owner between us. /some of the pics in his book "No Second Place Winners" were taken at that place. The garage, where Bill practiced had tens of thousands wax bullet strikes on every wall and the ceiling. There were some places where the dry wall had big holes in it and the brick was plastered with wax. He did miss a mite. A little known fact is that Bill shot and killed another Border Patrol Agent when he was demonstrating his fast draw and the round went through a wall and hit the guy in the adjoining room. This happened in Arizona.
 

USSR

Finger Lakes Region of NY
Hi Charles,

The bullets weigh 224gr with my alloy, and are in front of 5.0gr of AA#2. Near as I can figure, velocity is in the neighborhood of 775 - 800fps.

Don
 
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