9mm Parabellum
- Thread starter Petrol & Powder
- Start date
I've never hated the "nine," but worse - I've always been pretty indifferent to it.
Early-seventies, my dad had a Browning High-Power. We loaded it with a Lyman truncated cone and it fed reliably and was accurate. It took a ridiculous number of rounds to fill the magazine. My first handgun experience was with a OM Super Blackhawk, loaded to full potential with the Lyman 429303, the pointy one. I was ten and THAT got me hooked on shooting handguns, revolvers in particular and the big bore and big boom were the datum-point for me from that moment forward, so those puny, jelly-bean-sized cartridges of the "nine" did not particularly excite me.
I do love the 45 ACP. It seemed more "normal" to me.
I've ever owned ONE 9mm that I can remember - A tiny Kel-Tec, which held ten rounds, was utterly reliable, with whatever I stuck in the mag and a small paper-plate stood no chance at seven to ten yards. The trigger was like some kind of industrial stapler and made your finger hurt after four or five magazines.
I always despised the 357 Mag though. Thought the 38 was a "cute" throwback to the deprived days of weak handguns. I've at least changed my mind on those, but that only happened through the implementation of either in a carbine. The complementing revolvers followed and I use these more than anything these days. I've got it ALLLLLL figgered out now, boys!
Until @Outpost75 posted his tome-lite on the 9mm in the same context. Dangit, man! It makes SO much sense! NOW, I am no longer ambivalent to to 9mm. NOW, I feel like I NEED one - in revolver, carbine and probably a smallish auto-pistol.
I'm pretty sure I'm sticking with the 357. I'm fully vested, have nothing more to buy, build, fix, experiment with or test. I like being in that position - finally.
It sure has weighed on my mind though. I ignored the 9mm for a long, long time, but recently, it's been on my mind almost constantly.
EDIT: I will say this; if a 9mm Contender pistol barrel shows up for sale at a decent price it's going to cost me a small fortune. I'd have the cost of threading it, another stamp for an SBR, dies, moulds, sights, another red-dot, a revolver and probably a smallish auto. So. I scour the ads several times every day in hopes that one won't be posted. THAT is how determined I am to avoid the cartridge in question.
Early-seventies, my dad had a Browning High-Power. We loaded it with a Lyman truncated cone and it fed reliably and was accurate. It took a ridiculous number of rounds to fill the magazine. My first handgun experience was with a OM Super Blackhawk, loaded to full potential with the Lyman 429303, the pointy one. I was ten and THAT got me hooked on shooting handguns, revolvers in particular and the big bore and big boom were the datum-point for me from that moment forward, so those puny, jelly-bean-sized cartridges of the "nine" did not particularly excite me.
I do love the 45 ACP. It seemed more "normal" to me.
I've ever owned ONE 9mm that I can remember - A tiny Kel-Tec, which held ten rounds, was utterly reliable, with whatever I stuck in the mag and a small paper-plate stood no chance at seven to ten yards. The trigger was like some kind of industrial stapler and made your finger hurt after four or five magazines.
I always despised the 357 Mag though. Thought the 38 was a "cute" throwback to the deprived days of weak handguns. I've at least changed my mind on those, but that only happened through the implementation of either in a carbine. The complementing revolvers followed and I use these more than anything these days. I've got it ALLLLLL figgered out now, boys!
Until @Outpost75 posted his tome-lite on the 9mm in the same context. Dangit, man! It makes SO much sense! NOW, I am no longer ambivalent to to 9mm. NOW, I feel like I NEED one - in revolver, carbine and probably a smallish auto-pistol.
I'm pretty sure I'm sticking with the 357. I'm fully vested, have nothing more to buy, build, fix, experiment with or test. I like being in that position - finally.
It sure has weighed on my mind though. I ignored the 9mm for a long, long time, but recently, it's been on my mind almost constantly.
EDIT: I will say this; if a 9mm Contender pistol barrel shows up for sale at a decent price it's going to cost me a small fortune. I'd have the cost of threading it, another stamp for an SBR, dies, moulds, sights, another red-dot, a revolver and probably a smallish auto. So. I scour the ads several times every day in hopes that one won't be posted. THAT is how determined I am to avoid the cartridge in question.
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KeithB
Resident Half Fast Machinist
Not going to get into the 9mm vs anything else argument. Just want to state one fact - right now, under current conditions, the 9mm is the cheapest factory loaded centerfire round available. I've seen 50 round boxes of 115gr - 125gr hardball in reloadable brass cases for $12-$13 box. Given the price of primers, and if you have to buy factory bullets, there is very little economic reason for reloading the 9mm.
No, not for a handgun or repeating carbine. 9mm was $6/50 when I had my Kel-Tec. No point in loading for that.
But, if I DO acquire a "bunny-gun" barrel, I'd cast and hand-load for it. Too much missed opportunity on the low end by just going factory.
From what we've all seen, it doesn't hurt to have the dies and a couple moulds on-hand anyway. Who knows? It's cheap now, but might not always be. When I look at the ammo selection in WM (gauging purposes only), I see a couple boxes of 308, one or two in 243, a LOT of 350L,, a LOT of 223, bunches of 9mm, but no '06 or 30/30. I'd never have expected those, especially the 30/30, to be something you'd NOT find in the first store you stopped at.
Petrol & Powder
Well-Known Member
I think it is a good idea to have the dies, shell holders, and all the assorted gear to load ANY reloadable cartridge you have on hand even if you never reload that particular cartridge.
Petrol & Powder
Well-Known Member
Comparatively speaking, in today’s world the 9mm Luger cartridge is one of the cheaper centerfire handgun cartridges you can buy (it may be THE cheapest). So, if factory ammo is your thing, there’s a lot to be said for the 9mm Luger.
I did the math years ago and reloading 9mm Luger with FMJ yielded a solid 50% savings over purchasing loaded FMJ cartridges. That was probably 30+ years ago but in those days the choice was clear.
In today’s world the economics have changed. Even if you have primers and powder on hand that was purchased at reasonable past prices, you can’t replace those items for those same low prices.
If you used cast bullets but still had to go out and buy powder and primers at today’s cost – I think you would still see savings over factory loaded ammo, but it wouldn’t be a lot of savings.
If you used commercial FMJ bullets, you probably would break even with the cost of factory ammo. (this is speculation, I have not done the math)
If you had to acquire the dies, presses, shell holders, etc. and amortize those costs over the number of rounds loaded, you would likely have to load tens of thousands of rounds to reach the break even point.
dannyd
Well-Known Member
That cost is with today's prices. With the new load I worked up yesterday it's a little lower than before.
Petrol & Powder
Well-Known Member
500 bullets for $20 = $0.04 per cartridge. 50 cartridges = $2.00 for 50 bullets
1 pound of powder at $45 / pound = $0.0064/ grain
3.5 grains per cartridge = $0.0224/ cartridge for powder x 50 cartridges = $1.12 worth of powder for 50 rounds
1000 primers at $75 = $0.075 per cartridge. 50 primers = $3.75
$2 (bullets) + $1.12 (powder) + $3.75 (primers) = $6.87
I concur on your math. Looks like you rounded up somewhere (powder is likely) and got $6.88 but what’s a penny between friends?
KeithB
Resident Half Fast Machinist
@dannyd - That's about what I come up with. The average Joe isn't going to invest in several hundred $ of reloading and casting equipment and the time it takes to reload to save $7/box for an infrequently engaged in hobby.
By the way, I also reload 9mm but not for any perceived cost saving on bulk practice ammo.
By the way, I also reload 9mm but not for any perceived cost saving on bulk practice ammo.
Petrol & Powder
Well-Known Member
Just for fun, I went to Powder Valley’s website and picked currently available components for 9mm Luger using WSF powder, 115 gr. FMJ bullets and CCI primers.
WSF $42/pound = $0.006/grain. At 5.4 grains per round = $0.0324/round x 50 = $1.62 worth of powder for 50 rounds
CCI Small Pistol Primers $90/K = $0.09/ round x 50 = $4.50 for 50 primers
By the way the Servicios & Aventuras primers are $55/K
Winchester 115 gr FMJ $16/100 bullets = $0.16 per bullet x 50 = $8
So, at current prices and using the above data (without shipping costs and tax) we are looking at $14.12 for 50 rounds using 115 FMJ, WSF powder and CCI SPP.
If we use the less expensive Argentinian primers, we can get that down to $12.37 for 50 rounds.
That’s with “store bought” FMJ bullets and a fairly pricy per round powder.
WSF $42/pound = $0.006/grain. At 5.4 grains per round = $0.0324/round x 50 = $1.62 worth of powder for 50 rounds
CCI Small Pistol Primers $90/K = $0.09/ round x 50 = $4.50 for 50 primers
By the way the Servicios & Aventuras primers are $55/K
Winchester 115 gr FMJ $16/100 bullets = $0.16 per bullet x 50 = $8
So, at current prices and using the above data (without shipping costs and tax) we are looking at $14.12 for 50 rounds using 115 FMJ, WSF powder and CCI SPP.
If we use the less expensive Argentinian primers, we can get that down to $12.37 for 50 rounds.
That’s with “store bought” FMJ bullets and a fairly pricy per round powder.
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I keep a decent stock of all the primers and the flats of primers(5000) were $75-80 per flat at most of the shows almost for ever until the few years ago where a flat cost $250 - $300 now. I really do not understand how a purchased product has that much of a price increase over a short period of time. Needless to say, I have not purchased primers in the last 5 years. Powder hasn't tripled in price. What's up with primers?
Bruce
Bruce
Petrol & Powder
Well-Known Member
Incredible demand coupled with plenty of customers willing to pay the asking price.
The price is determined by the BUYERS not the sellers.
CZ93X62
Official forum enigma
BUCCANEERS is 'What's up' with primers. Stop feeding the greedy SOBs and prices might moderate. It ain't rocket science.
Casting bullets and reloading has some cost savings, and I'm sure that after 54 years of this addiction I have amortized my investment in tooling by now. Maybe.
Do I care, though? Not a bit. I like crafting ammo to fit well and shoot accurately as a side-effect of that loving attention. This pays benefits BIGTIME with the 9 x 19 Luger. My current in-house 9mms all shoot a whole lot more accurately with my tailored handloads than any factory load.
Find a case that your pistol's poetic chamber likes (mine is Starline) and stick with that--EVERYTHING in 9mm caliber varies--bullets, cases, primer pockets, throating, bore/groove. Twist rates are insanely fast for such short. squatty bullets--1/10" or 4 turns/meter. Colt and Springfield Armory use 1/16" (HINT/HINT/HINT). Groove diameters are almost NEVER on spec @ .355", either--mine are .357"-.358". .357" cast or jacketed bullets do a whole lot better than their .355"-.356" counterparts. Use the same primers, as well--CCI #500 do my 9mm work.
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CZ93X62
Official forum enigma
Yup--French/Creole origins, it meant 'bacon maker' in the Mississippi Delta country.