A whipper snapper and his new 30-30!

[popper]

Josh - didn't mean to start an uproar. If you anneal those cases after a few reloads probably no problem. I had problems with radial neck cracks after shooting half jacket hornadys that gave the stepped bulge in the neck. Several expansion/contractions of the neck at the bullet base caused stress cracks. Your fix is probably good enough.
Don't know why NOE makes all the spuds short - same spud blank for all cals could be longer (maybe pistol spuds need to be shorter?) = machine time would only a few seconds more.

 

[Rockydoc]

I mix & match my die sets quite a bit to get the finished case mouth dimensions I want. I do re-home them in the storage box they belong in after use. I couldn't find a flippin' thing out there if I didn't return them to home port.

Spud or ball mic'ed diameter is no guarantee of finished neck diameter, all necks have a tiny skoash of springback, ranging from a few to several tenths. Just remember that most die dimensions are biased for jacketed bullets of "standard" diameters", which means that their finished brass products will likely reduce softer cast bullet diameters during seating. Gas checks might or might not open the gates properly for you during seating. Improvise, custom-make, and overcome.

That suggests a reason to anneal. Do any of you anneal?

 

[popper]

Only when I start getting neck cracks on a few from a batch. I just use a torch and wit till I get the neck/shoulder color change, then into water. I tend to load and shoot batches or 100 or so, easier to keep track. Get a few bad from a shoot and toss the rest in anneal bucket.

 

[Rushcreek]

I like the powder dumpster reference! For cast, I've used Bullseye, Unique, IMR 4198, 3031, 4320, 4895 and 4350; H335 and Win748 with stellar results. With jacketed, I've used most everything from 4198 to 4831 in burning rate with sucess. I've been loading 30-30s since 1972.

 

[Rockydoc]

Annealing to eliminate or reduce variable neck tension due to spring back. That is what I meant. It is more than just extending the life of brass, it helps accuracy.

Yes, the 30-30 is a very versatile cartridge.

 

[fiver]

I have some of my cases on a scheduled annealing and others just get it when I see the sizing issues start popping up.

I got kind of carried away when I first got the machine since it was so fast and easy.
then after really looking and paying attention, I started looking more at a sweet spot in the neck anneal, and a fresh anneal never seemed to be the place I wanted to be.
[yeah I know many black powder guy's anneal each and every time]

 

[Rockydoc]

I have some of my cases on a scheduled annealing and others just get it when I see the sizing issues start popping up.

I got kind of carried away when I first got the machine since it was so fast and easy.
then after really looking and paying attention, I started looking more at a sweet spot in the neck anneal, and a fresh anneal never seemed to be the place I wanted to be.
[yeah I know many black powder guy's anneal each and every time]

What annealing machine do you have, Fiver? Do you recommend it?

 

[fiver]

I have the bench source vortex, and I really like it.
it uses 2 pencil type torches [not supplied but they give you the part number and ACE hardware has them] and is adjustable for time which is the key to consistent annealing.
there are others out there which are a lot simpler and less expensive of course but I can do stuff as small as the 25-20 or as large as the ultra mag cases with just a few adjustments.
I might even be able to do 45 acp cases but I haven't tried anything that short and don't really intend to.

 

[waco]

I have the Vertex as well. Money well spent. You can anneal hundreds of cases in short order.

 

[Rockydoc]

My annealing needs are not great enough to justify the cost of a Vertex.
I saw a method of annealing that uses molten salt in a Lee melter which costs less than $100 if you already have a PID. It is not table salt, which has too high of a melting temp. It is a mixture of potassium salt and some other. You buy the salt(~$18) and a device which fits into the melter (~$36) and the melter(~$36) that's about it.

 

[Rockydoc]

Here is the YouTube of that salt annealer.

 

[Rick H]

I use the Anneal-rite system. It uses tempilaq and two propane torches. Pretty simple and effective. When I purchased it they were under $80 delivered. The basic kit with one "shell holder" is now $110 delivered. You need to purchase your own torches.

 

[popper]

Socket on a cordless drill works with single torch also. I just use my fingers and eye. Yes it helps get good proper neck tension as well as longer case life. I anneal then FL resize. Brass tends to have huge glob molecules when work hardened which fracture easily. Annealing reduces size of the blobs and gives more consistent strength.

 

[Joshua]

This is the part of the conversation where I explain how I anneal by hand. Then someone comes back and tells me that there is no possible way that I have any consistency with my method. Then I snap back with the “I’ve been running torches for thirty years” rant.

Oh wait a minute! I’m not on “that” Forum right now.

I use a metronome app on my phone to time every annealing cycle.

The variable speed drill motor is bolted to a pivot point, via the side handle clamp. The motor speed is set with a piece of tape over the trigger. A deep well socket protects the lower portion of the brass. The propane torch is set to it’s lowest setting.

Swing up past the flame and load the socket. Swing to the flame. Count off to the metronome. Swing past the flame and brass drops into the water bucket on the floor.

How do I know how hot, how long? That’s where a temperature indicating crayon and thirty years of brazing and welding comes into play.

I am comfortable with the results that I get.

Josh

 

[Ian]

You know, Josh, that's about the best improvised annealing setup I've read about. It's precise, repeatable, inexpensive if you already have the stuff, and simple. Very clever.

 

[fiver]

it's also basically what you get if you buy the Hornady system.

there's a ton of others now, I'm positive there's one on U-tube that uses a simple roller and you set the speed the little case holder spins.
there is a notch cut in the little cup thing the case drops out of.

maybe 8-10 years back there wasn't a lot of options it was water and tempilaq, or the vortex.
I have something on the order of 30-35K 223 cases alone and I can knock out a bucket full in nothing flat.
it's so fast I work up a sweat running 5-600 cases trying to keep up dumping the little catch bucket I have, grabbing more cases, putting the bucket back in place, and feeding it more cases.

 

[Joshua]

I researched quite a bit before I started annealing. I took the best ideas that I could find and combined them into the system that I use now. Based on nothing more than press feel, it seems to be consistent method.

Reforming 30-06 into 7.7x58 Japanese
takes some time. These are the cases that I anneal the most because I want to make them last longer.

Also, my dies size the necks too small in the neck area. My Arisakas slug at .3165” and .316”. I run .318” bullets. The expander balls in my die sets all measure 311”. I then expand with a .314” x .318” NOE expander plug, which really isn’t big enough, but seems to work. Long story short I over work these mouths way too much, and the annealing greatly improves their lives.

Josh

 

[Joshua]

It’s raining!
So I’m reloading!!!

I assembled a 30-30 load ladder with some 311041 PC/GC sized .311” over W748.
31gr
32gr
33gr
34gr
&
34.5gr

Fun Fact: The Lyman 4th edition calls out 35gr of W748 as a max load over a 311041. But, the Hodgdon’s online data calls out 32gr (for a jacketed 170gr bullet).

I will be watching my primers pretty closely.

Josh

 

[CZ93X62]

My jacketed 30/30 loads (Sierra Pro-Hunter)--

150 grain bullet--34.5 grains, 2275 FPS from 20" barrel.

170 grain bullet--32.0 grains, 2100 FPS from 20" barrel.

One of the truly exquisite things about the 30/30 WCF......the velocity ranges it occupies to 150 yards are very easy to make a controlled-expansion cup & core soft point bullet behave itself properly. I really think this has been the key to success for the 30/30 WCF for all these years. Add on that the cartridge comes in light handy lever carbines that don't beat a shooter hard, and it is a great recipe for venison-making.

 

[Ian]

My jacketed 30/30 loads (Sierra Pro-Hunter)--

150 grain bullet--34.5 grains, 2275 FPS from 20" barrel.

That exact load, in WW Super brass with WLR primers, with FCD in the cannelure, is THE levergun load. Carved in a piece of granite numerous places.