Accurate " Production Revolver ", 38/357 cal.

[abj]

Based on our group of guys relating to NRA Bullseye and DR match's this is what I have seen. Pretty much 90% of the K frames, mostly 14's and 15's need cylinder throats to be made uniform (if they are not to start with) and forcing cones will need polishing. In some cases a "Taylor" throat will help also.
The other most used revolvers used in the game are Colt, Officers model match and Trooper series. I have a trooper and nothing needed to be done to it.
So my answer to the OP is the older Colts $$$$$$$ and next would be the Smith K's with a little gunsmithing for much less money than the Colt is to start with.
I have never used the double action Rugers much so no comment on those, but the Blackhawks I would class the same as the Smith's. Just a little finishing work and they are capable of outstanding accuracy.

When this thread got woke up, some other calibers entered the discussion. The 32 long when put into the same platforms as the 38 spl. the 32 long wins hands down, ie.... K-32. (in my humble opinion)

44 spl. is another caliber I have been amazed at how easy and accurate it is to get to target level accuracy. Not many affordable double actions are available. Most any good bullet and proper powder selection will yield good results.

Tony

 

[Missionary]

We do have a S&W that is accurate. Has that long 8 3/8" tube on it. But again it is a .41 mag.

 

[L Ross]

Hhmmm . . . Sounds like there is a worthwhile purpose for golf balls after all.

I pick them up when I see them laying around. When I skin a deer I pull the neck hide loose, tuck a golf ball under the hide, wrap a rope around it a couple of times, chain the head down to the hitch on my truck and lift the deer by the rope with the forks of my Kubota. Just like peeling off a rubber glove.

 

[Jeff H]

...

44 spl. is another caliber I have been amazed at how easy and accurate it is to get to target level accuracy. Not many affordable double actions are available. Most any good bullet and proper powder selection will yield good results.

Tony

I have found this myself, shooting a 4" 624, which shot very well, along with numerous "cheap" 44 Specials, like the Taurus revolvers of the early nineties, the Rossi M720 and the obvious and ubiquitous Charter Bulldog - specifically the Stratford and Bridgeport versions. I have no experience with their 44s of more recent vintage. A few of the Charters were/are 4" guns, but most all were 3" guns. If a fella could get the hang of holding one still, they will shoot. Maybe not like a Smith or Ruger when it gets right down to. I can only think of ONE revovler I've ever owned which was just a flat out turd in accuracy, and that happened to be a 2" Charter 32 Mag. I gave that one away with a bag of 500 32 Mag cases I sold once.

Then too, any of the "cheap" 38s I shot shot well too, meaning older Rossis and even vintage 2" Charters. My wife used to shoot 2.5", five-shot groups with a stainless Charter Under Cover at 25 yards. She'd sit on a small block, put her elbows on her knees and pop away.

I've not owned enough Smiths to comment on those much, which is a shame. I missed a fair number of deals on used, police trade-ins over the years. Never had anything against them, just never paid them much mind. I have always appreciated the design aspects of Charter and Ruger (borrowed heavily from High Standard) and was happy with them.

I've never chucked a gun up in a Ransom rest. Take my "shot well" with that grain of salt. Maybe they'd have shot better, but I doubt they'd have shot worse.

 

[abj]

I went back to Ben's Original question----"production revolver with match grade 38 spl. ammo"
I will assume he is talking about wadcutters at 50 yd.
I am sticking with my previous answer of older Colts, not because they are Colts but some of them had a faster twist of 1:14 and 1:12 as compared to Smiths 1:18.75 I think. You can do any and all upgrades you want to a Smith, but unless you change to a faster twist you are not going to equal the Colt's faster barrel twist with wc at 50.
In the 80's when PPC was king, a favorite conversion for those guys was a k frame with a Colt barrel. If you could afford it- a k frame with a custom 1:10 twist barrel. I was lucky enough a few years ago to acquire a Travis Strahan build with a 10 twist. It will deliver wadcutters at 100 yds, under 3 inches off the bench. It is a double action only which is my only bone to pick with this gun.

Now having said all that, there was a thread a week or so ago about the Lee 105 swc. I have seen several stock Smith's shoot that bullet more accurate than WC's. The Slower twist may have something to do with that. ????? I guess Ben will have to answer---Does our handloads qualify as "match grade", I know some if not most of his do. Ask his Grandson.
Tony

 

[Mainiac]

10-4 on the 105 lee!! My smiths will shoot this bullet into 1 tear in the paper..but ive never tried it at 50 yds. 3grs of bullseyeand this bullet is amazing,,recoil is laughable..

 

[L Ross]

10-4 on the 105 lee!! My smiths will shoot this bullet into 1 tear in the paper..but ive never tried it at 50 yds. 3grs of bullseyeand this bullet is amazing,,recoil is laughable..

I used the Lee 105 in a .357 10" Contender to shoot silhouette years and years ago. 9.0 grains of Bullseye, it shot flat and hit hard. The guys shooting 110 grain jacketed were fascinated. Not enough to start casting, but fascinated.

 

[Missionary]

All we shoot are our own cast in revolvers. Most everyone in our club know that and are full of questions how do we do that but never ask how to do it themselves. Even when there are no bullets to buy....
I guess complaining is easier than attempting.

 

[Bret4207]

I can't/won't claim that the Ruger Security/Service/Speed Six series is the most accurate f production revolvers, but Every one I've had was capable of excellent accuracy - 1.5" to 1.0" for five at twenty five, if I'd done due diligence as I dropped the hammer.

To be fair, I've shot, but never owned a Colt revolver, and I've only owned two Smiths. Both the Smiths were N-Frames - 44 Special and 45 Colt and they both shot very well - small, round clusters when I was "feelin' it." I'm no master pistolero either, but have recently realized I was pretty good, especially compared to how I shoot these days, due to mostly lack of practice, distractions and eyesight.

So, THE most accurate production revolver I've ever owned was a Bicentennial, 4" blued Security Six, which I am certain someone of great skill "worked on," as it became my benchmark thereafter as to how one of that series should feel and shoot. It shot all holes touching reliably and consistently, with seemingly little effort o my part. I could do no wrong with that revolver regarding bullet or load, my mood or the weather or distance.

Many years ago, I participated weekly in an informal "turkey shoot" with a handful of fellow revolver guys. We shot off-hand at 25 yards. That Ruger had a reputation and one fella brought a new $700 Python one Saturday with the intent to put my "cheap Ruger" in its rightful place. We shot and tied, so he challenged me to shoot at a hundred yards, standing, with our wrists rested like a "field position." The target (I know this is wrong) was a dead car battery sitting atop an old car lying on its side. I smacked the small end of it five out of five times without taking much time. If I remember correctly, he "forfeited" by quietly returning his Python to the case and going home. We never spoke of it after that.

Not bragging. It wasn't that much of a shooting feat, but it wasn't luck either. That "cheap Ruger" ($150, used, but pristine) was like it had a wil of its own to steer bullets into exactly where I wanted them to go.

The Security and Speed Sizes I've owned and shot all did well. The single turn off for me with that series was the transfer bar or whatever it was that clinked every time you moved it. A tiny criticism, I know, but I was after a shinier Smith in those days. If I could find a 4" Security Six today at a good price I'd grab it.

 

[Jeff H]

The Security and Speed Sizes I've owned and shot all did well. The single turn off for me with that series was the transfer bar or whatever it was that clinked every time you moved it. A tiny criticism, I know, but I was after a shinier Smith in those days. If I could find a 4" Security Six today at a good price I'd grab it.

The transfer bar in a Ruger is a serious hunk of steel. I'm hard of hearing to begin with, but I don't think I've ever heard one. Not to say it doesn't happen, because I can imagine it.

It does create a challenge, particularly with the SA trigger. Same for their single-actions though. It's possible to get a great SA trigger on one, but then have the transfer bar not be raised up far enough and MISS the firing pin completely, or have the transfer bar squirt out from between the firing pin and hammer, yielding seriously inconsistent ignition problems. This is where selecting between different triggers, transfer bars and pawls of a few thousandths difference in length completes a real trigger job on one of these guns. And sometime you just get lucky.

Without a good trigger, it's hard to ascertain just how accurate a revolver is anyway.

 

[Inthebeech]

Mike Herron (Heffron Precision) has been talking to some of the Bullseye shooters on that forum. Long story short his testing at 50 and 100 yards has shown that the new Python is excellent and over a number of identical guns of each model (to eliminate single outliers), is probably the most precise revolver of all and that includes the original Python, the k38 as well as the Officers Model Match. I’m holding out for others to Ransom test the new Python but from ONE source at least, there appears to be a new king of precision. My 14-3 can easily do three inches at fifty yards with Remington factory match ammo. Call Herron and chat.

 

[Bret4207]

The transfer bar in a Ruger is a serious hunk of steel. I'm hard of hearing to begin with, but I don't think I've ever heard one. Not to say it doesn't happen, because I can imagine it.

Mine made a little "clink" sound. Didn't know what it was until I was cleaning it. It probably wouldn't have been a big deal except I was convinced a Smith was just better and that was the thing I probably found to justify my desire. Can't say the M19 that replaced it was any more accurate or not, but it sure is prettier!

 

[Petrol & Powder]

The hammer block safeties on S&W and Ruger DA revolvers accomplish the same task but they achieve that task by different approaches.
The S&W hammer block prevents the hammer from moving fully forward unless the trigger is fully depressed. The Ruger hammer cannot reach the firing pin and the transfer bar must be in the upper position to transfer the hammer's energy to the firing pin.
Yeah, the Ruger transfer bar is a bit bigger and somewhat loose when not held under the hammer, but it doesn't bother me.
Both systems are well proven and completely reliable, but I do find the Ruger transfer bar to be a bit more novel approach. The hammer rests solidly on the frame when it is fully lowered. It was a clever solution.

 

[Mitty38]

Have two 357's .
1982 SW 686 with a 4 inch barrel. Also a 2018 Taurus 66, with a 6 inch barrel.
The SW is virtually the same gun but way better trigger, action cycles way smoother then the Taurus. But the Taurus shoots much better with a rest at 50 yards, with full power loads.
However free standing two hand or one the SW wins at 21 feet. No mater what the load, 38 or 357. I believe just because it is smoother operating even though the muzzle flips more. Its ease of use makes up for muzzel flip and the longer barrel, defence conditions.
These are the only 2 guns I have experience over a length of time, in 357, 38 spcl. So that is all I can rightly give an opinion on.

 

[obssd1958]

Back in 1972, my Dad's best friend had a Blackhawk in .357 that he carried in a holster while hunting. The group he was in, motored across a local reservoir to hunt on the other side. When he got out of the boat, he knocked the revolver loose, and it dropped to the rocks on the bank. It hit on the hammer and fired a single round that hit him in the rear, and ended up in his chest. He didn't make it back to the other side of the reservoir.
About 15 years ago, I was elk hunting in the Idaho mountains, and made the mistake of thinking "if deer and elk can walk that trail down, so can I!" I lost my footing and slid @ 40' down to the rocks in the creek bed below. I was carrying a New Model Blackhawk in .44, and after regaining my composure, looked down to my right to see the barrel of the .44 in the rocks, pointed right at me.
I was immediately very thankful for Ruger's transfer bar...

I sent that revolver back to Ruger a couple years later, to have a new cylinder fit to it. The original had some weird half moon divots inside each of the chambers. When I got it back, they had relaced all of the worn parts, including the banged up hammer and rear sight, and re-blued the whole gun - no charge.

So I'm a Ruger fan for more than one reason!

 

[Bret4207]

Have two 357's .
1982 SW 686 with a 4 inch barrel. Also a 2018 Taurus 66, with a 6 inch barrel.
The SW is virtually the same gun but way better trigger, action cycles way smoother then the Taurus. But the Taurus shoots much better with a rest at 50 yards, with full power loads.
However free standing two hand or one the SW wins at 21 feet. No mater what the load, 38 or 357. I believe just because it is smoother operating even though the muzzle flips more. Its ease of use makes up for muzzel flip and the longer barrel, defence conditions.
These are the only 2 guns I have experience over a length of time, in 357, 38 spcl. So that is all I can rightly give an opinion on.

Some guns seem to shoot better depending on what you're doing, at least for me. My little Smith Kit Gun shoots better for me if I hold it one handed in the classic offhand pistol type stance than off a bench. My Smith 19 wants a 2 handed hold offhand. My Charter Bulldog 44 seems to shoot (twist actually) more and more to the left the less support it has, eg- off the bench is better than offhand. It probably varies with each person quite a bit I would think. My Smith 38 Bodyguard, it doesn't seem to matter what you do- you have to concentrate HARD on sight alignment, trigger control and sight picture to kill those charging rocks at that sandpit. But hip shooting at a target at 5 yards the short sight radius doesn't matter, you steer with your torso. Before I scoped my Ruger SS 32Mag I found that even with the 9.5" barrel that gun just wasn't an easy one for me to shoot. Even with the scope it's persnickety which I put down to the SA grip which I never found comfortable. But the Blackhawk 45 4 5/8" is dead easy to get good groups with so that theory went out the window.

Kinda funny how stuff works for the individual.

 

[Bret4207]

Back in 1972, my Dad's best friend had a Blackhawk in .357 that he carried in a holster while hunting. The group he was in, motored across a local reservoir to hunt on the other side. When he got out of the boat, he knocked the revolver loose, and it dropped to the rocks on the bank. It hit on the hammer and fired a single round that hit him in the rear, and ended up in his chest. He didn't make it back to the other side of the reservoir.
About 15 years ago, I was elk hunting in the Idaho mountains, and made the mistake of thinking "if deer and elk can walk that trail down, so can I!" I lost my footing and slid @ 40' down to the rocks in the creek bed below. I was carrying a New Model Blackhawk in .44, and after regaining my composure, looked down to my right to see the barrel of the .44 in the rocks, pointed right at me.
I was immediately very thankful for Ruger's transfer bar...

I sent that revolver back to Ruger a couple years later, to have a new cylinder fit to it. The original had some weird half moon divots inside each of the chambers. When I got it back, they had relaced all of the worn parts, including the banged up hammer and rear sight, and re-blued the whole gun - no charge.

So I'm a Ruger fan for more than one reason!

No argument about the transfer bar being safer!

 

[CZ93X62]

No argument about the transfer bar being safer!

Too right.

I mess around with classic-form Colt and Uberti single actions quite a bit, and whenever they are holster-carried the chamber lying under the hammer stays empty. That regimen has been SOP since 1836, when Sam Colt's Paterson revolvers came on scene. That man that Don spoke of did himself no favors with his loading regimen. Kind of chilling to read that account; we hear of such things as a part of shooting lore, but a real-world example with known participants focuses the subject more clearly. Don's follow-up experience sharpens it further.

 

[Petrol & Powder]

Ruger has been forced to defend against numerous lawsuits concerning their “Old Model” single actions.

It is unfortunate, to say the least, that in addition to death or serious injury, there is also a monetary component to these events. No amount of money will bring someone back from death, but that fact doesn’t stop people from seeking money.

The accepted practice with a single action revolver was to ALWAYS rest the hammer on an empty chamber. When that practice is followed the guns are extremely safe. When Ruger introduced its new model transfer bar system, that improvement was used as evidence that the old system was dangerous. This was ridiculous. Ruger was caught between the old SA system that was perfectly safe if the operator followed the well-known safety procedures and the new system that was an improvement but used as evidence against Ruger.

Ruger took the high road and offered to retrofit the old models for free. They stopped making the old models in favor of the improved action. They added the infamous warning roll mark (I guess assuming that a few idiots were both literate and would actually follow the safety instructions ?). Ruger launched an extensive safety campaign. Despite all of Ruger’s efforts, there were still emotional and ignorant jurors out there that wanted to reward stupidity and punish Ruger.

 

[Edward R Southgate]

My 1920's Colt Officers Model Target would be my first choice . I had a 1970's Detective Special that regularly took out 20 oz 7 UP bottles at 100 yards , never shot it at 50 yards .