Alliant suspends all powder shipments

[Tomme boy]

If we get in a shooting war, the lack of material will soon become apparent. OSHA regulations have severely hampered any explosive or powder manufacture in the USA. The startup and continued burdened cost for manufacture prohibits new startup without excessive capital backing. Several of us investigated this four years ago and found reluctance for this industry from anyone willing to back new plants. The fabled new plant in Texas producing primers is only selling to comemrcial reloaders or their own subsidiary.

Expansion Industry went bankrupt in Texas. The Other one is White River in Arkansas is not selling to public. All primers are being sent overseas to Australia and New Zealand. As they are 2-3x the wholesale price here. The only place that has them is Republic Ammunition and White River broke the contract they had with them so they said FU and are selling all they have. No more will be available in the US till they change their policy.

Supposedly there is a new place that is in Utah that has sent out primers to people and reloading companies already for testing. They were supposed to be up and running this year. It has been 6 months or more since I heard anything else about this place. So WHO KNOWS????????

 

[Tomme boy]

Nammo is supposed to be opening a new facility in Finland. That will help but not much for us. They are citing the Russian invasion of Ukraine as a need to be able to make everything themselves. Seems we need to be doing the same.

 

[JonB]

I worry that my canoe won't hold all my powder and primers, Maybe I need to buy a bigger canoe?

 

[JBinMN]

The issue has been for years: what to do with the thousands of gallons of acid waste from making nitrocellulose.

ummm... Hows about send it to China? ( <Just a little "tongue in cheek" even though I think it's a pretty good idea from where I am sitting. Don't like the commies much. )

 

[Ian]

ummm... Hows about send it to China? ( <Just a little "tongue in cheek" even though I think it's a pretty good idea from where I am sitting. Don't like the commies much. )

Just please don't send it to the Texas gulf coast refineries, they'll figure out a way to make motor fuel out of it just like all the other noxious crap that we get in the pipeline that's called "unleaded gasoline". It's cheaper to let the public burn and filter it through their vehicle's catalytic converters than to do the same thing on site. True story, I have a college buddy who runs a lab that does exactly that.

 

[Outpost75]

A good time to lurk estate sales for shotgun powders from trap and skeet shooters who have passed and to repurpose their 452AA which Olin quit making in 1991, to load pistol or revolver ammo.

If your Star machine is set to meter a safe charge of Bullseye for .38 Special.or .45 ACP you don't need to re-adjust. Just refill with 452AA and keep going.

 

[JonB]

I'm always on the prowl for vintage powders.
The last gunshow I was at, I scored two cans of Alcan AL-8.
While those square flakes don't like normal metering, they do fine with Lee's disk measure on a indexed turret press, all the jiggling, jerking, and clunking, you know.

 

[fiver]

glad i stocked up on rl-19 after the last debacle.
i could sure use a jug of I-4064 though, musta grabbed some cfe-223 last time out.

 

[Ian]

A good time to lurk estate sales for shotgun powders from trap and skeet shooters who have passed and to repurpose their 452AA which Olin quit making in 1991, to load pistol or revolver ammo.

If your Star machine is set to meter a safe charge of Bullseye for .38 Special.or .45 ACP you don't need to re-adjust. Just refill with 452AA and keep going.

Speer #11 has load data for .38 SPL and .45 ACP using 452AA. I still have a 16 poind cylinder of that stuff somebody gave me.

 

[Tomme boy]

i have a bunch of AL8. Been trying to use it in my 357s so I don't have to use the other good powders first. But is is proving to be a lot faster than what the load data out there is showing. 2gr under the max load and flattened primers. And talk about dirty!!!!! I can turn a case upside down and powder falls out after I shot it. Mainly like sand size particles. I have like 6lbs of it and at 9grs a pop it will be a long time before I run out.

Not to mention the unopened kegs of PB and 700x and red metal keg of bullseye. I have never used either of the 700 or pb.

 

[Petrol & Powder]

I would like to hear directly from Vista Outdoors (the owners of Alliant) rather than from one of their customers, like Powder Valley. (who have an incentive to create a buying frenzy)

Vista Outdoors just released their 4th quarter earnings and they seem to be making money, so that's a good sign.

Speculation such as: The government is buying it all up, or the government is attempting to choke out the supply - is nothing more than speculation.

If someone were to claim the government ordered the sun to rise earlier in the spring and then people noticed the sun rising earlier each day, there are folks that would claim earlier sunrises are proof of that fictious government order. Coincidence is not causation.

Furthermore, I don’t think for a second that any portion of the government could possibly accomplish something like covertly controlling a commercial product. There would be too many people involved, most of whom would be outside the control of the government. I know people, and people cannot keep their mouths shut.

While there may be a temporary shortage of some material, like nitro cellulose, I’ve yet to see any proof of that, or more importantly, the real cause of that alleged shortage. It could simply be a pause in manufacturing to update systems. We don’t have enough information at this point.

There’s one place where no shortage exists and that is demand. So, I don’t think companies are going to stop making smokeless powder. Where there is money to be made, someone will make money.

 

[TXTad]

I would like to hear directly from Vista Outdoors (the owners of Alliant) rather than from one of their customers, like Powder Valley. (who have an incentive to create a buying frenzy)

Vista Outdoors just released their 4th quarter earnings and they seem to be making money, so that's a good sign.

Speculation such as: The government is buying it all up, or the government is attempting to choke out the supply - is nothing more than speculation.

If someone were to claim the government ordered the sun to rise earlier in the spring and then people noticed the sun rising earlier each day, there are folks that would claim earlier sunrises are proof of that fictious government order. Coincidence is not causation.

Furthermore, I don’t think for a second that any portion of the government could possibly accomplish something like covertly controlling a commercial product. There would be too many people involved, most of whom would be outside the control of the government. I know people, and people cannot keep their mouths shut.

While there may be a temporary shortage of some material, like nitro cellulose, I’ve yet to see any proof of that, or more importantly, the real cause of that alleged shortage. It could simply be a pause in manufacturing to update systems. We don’t have enough information at this point.

There’s one place where no shortage exists and that is demand. So, I don’t think companies are going to stop making smokeless powder. Where there is money to be made, someone will make money.

A friend who has been in the industry for a very long time told me about the nitrocellulose shortage a few months ago. That's why I've been buying powder even at the current prices. The problem is that most nitrocellulose comes from China. They simply are not happy about our foreign policy at the moment, so they are restricting the supply. Add on to that increase in demand not just from the obvious wars, but also from more consumer goods that require it and the supply is quite tight and prices high.

I also presume that in at least Alliant's case, they have a lot of production capacity consumed by their military contracts.

 

[KeithB]

There has been a lot of gunpowder burned in Ukraine by both sides. There is a finite supply of the basic materials used to make gunpowder. Manufacturers would rather have long term contracts with the government than depend on the consumer market. Add all this up and you have the shortages we are currently experiencing.

But it is interesting to observe the paranoia it elicits in people

 

[Gary]

It's only paranoia if it isn't real.

 

[Petrol & Powder]

The sky has been falling since before I was born, and it has yet to crash into the ground.

If China is in fact the source of the raw materials in question, they will be extremely eager to sell those commodities. The Chinese economy is in horrible shape right now and they are printing money even faster than we are (which is saying something). The Chinese economy is currently on the edge of collapse, particularly in the real estate sector. They have tremendous foreign debt and nobody wants to lend them money. Their communist government has been attempting to blend capitalistic business models with communistic government control, but it has not gone well. If you need convincing, look up the Evergrande Group.

I don’t believe China is the sole source for the chemicals needed but they may have been the cheapest source. If manufacturers need to switch suppliers, they will. I’m not even sure China is the problem here. American chemical companies are more than capable of filling the need but that may come at a price. Over regulation, high taxes, high minimum wages, and other impediments to industry have repercussions. There’s a REASON jobs get exported beyond our borders.

As for regional conflicts, those have been going on since the beginning of time. I’m not sure the conflicts in Ukraine and Israel are sucking up every available ounce of smokeless powder. And government contracts are some of the most volatile contracts on earth. They can be canceled quickly, and they are ALWAYS canceled when wars end. Government contracts are lucrative while they are in force, but the private sector is far more dependable in the long run.

I need information beyond rumors.

 

[Outpost75]

Domestic manufacturing capacity for nitrocellulose is priority allocated for DoD needs first. There are no current leftovers because of demand to replace war reserve stocks.

China is selling most of its capacity to Russia.

New nitrocellulose base material for manufacturing sporting powders is mostly imported from Brazil or South Korea. While the Canadians produce a good deal of it, nearly all of it is allocated for NATO military needs first.

The Olin Spheroidal powders all use recycled nitrocellulose obtained by salvaging it from expired military propellants. The Euro imported powders all use new nitrocellulose base made in Germany, Finland or France.

 

[LEC Guy]

Well when I run out of primers or powder, I'll fall back to this for every day carry!

Bruce

 

[Petrol & Powder]

Sounds like there are plenty of sources, including Brazil, S. Korea & Canada.

And I’m certain we could make it ourselves but maybe not as cheaply.

I don’t think this is a panic worthy issue

 

[JWFilips]

And I’m certain we could make it ourselves but maybe not as cheaply.

I have made it in my "basement bomber" days when I was in 12th grade of HS ( Had full run of my High School Chemistry Lab supplies room because I was the head nerd student!)
Also with the help of information from my Chemistry Teacher ( he had his doctorate ) I was able to get the pure anhydrous Nitric and Sulphuric acid to make a teaspoon full of Nitro Glycerin
Those 2 acids along with Pure cotton makes Gun Cotton ( Nitrocellulose)
Not sure what Commercial material is used because I lost interest in the stuff when I graduate HS and found girls!

 

[Petrol & Powder]

If China is currently sending raw material for powder manufacturing to Russia, that begs the question – were they selling it to U.S. manufacturers before?

I’m having a difficult time believing that producers of smokeless powders are dependent on Chinese sources for stock as basic as nitric acid and cellulose. Or that it would be economical to transport such a cheap but flammable product halfway around the world.

Smokeless powder is made in many places, Australia, Florida, Finland, France, Sweden, Belgium, Canada, and clearly other places. Some directly for military use, some only for commercial ammunition manufacturing and some for direct retail sales for use by reloaders.

I have not heard Alliant Powders directly say they cannot obtain raw materials for powder manufacturing. I’ve only seen vague reference that Powder Valley (a retail distributor) allegedly claims they received notice from Alliant. I’m skeptical of that hearsay.

Hearsay defined :

All of us that have been in the firearms/reloading game for decades have seen the boom-and-bust cycles associated with the national election cycles. We are in an election year and I’m highly suspicious that nitric acid and organic material suddenly became rare.

I’m also suspicious of “war time” demands suddenly becoming a factor when one conflict has been going on for over two years and the other one for 7 months. I’m not saying it’s impossible, but I am saying I have doubts.