Annealing Set-ups: immersing cases in solid media?
- Thread starter Jäger
- Start date
rodmkr
Temecula California
I have the Annleez unit. It is one of the original units he sold.
I have had little or no problems with it and with the larger set
of wheels I do 45/70, and 577/450 brass. The rimmed cases
require you to keep a close eye on them as they have a
tendency to slip out of the loading shute.
I am very happy with the unit and highly recommend it.
rodmkr
I have had little or no problems with it and with the larger set
of wheels I do 45/70, and 577/450 brass. The rimmed cases
require you to keep a close eye on them as they have a
tendency to slip out of the loading shute.
I am very happy with the unit and highly recommend it.
rodmkr
why do fish get the doldrums in Mid-Winter? Same reason I do 
I got some templaq and it sits on the shelf getting dusty. I've watched vids of commercial manuf. using flame and induction. Good induction method is good and Expensive! Home induction units the coil is the problem. Needs cooling. I have thought about a steel/ceramic torus for the source, easy to control. As the salt annealing method, the length of insertion and time are critical and difficult (?) for me to control. You have to balance the speed of conduction through the neck area to prevent softening the case yet enough into the neck to actually anneal. Pot of melted lead kinda does the job but sticks to the neck - leave the primer in helps some - same with torch.
I got some templaq and it sits on the shelf getting dusty. I've watched vids of commercial manuf. using flame and induction. Good induction method is good and Expensive! Home induction units the coil is the problem. Needs cooling. I have thought about a steel/ceramic torus for the source, easy to control. As the salt annealing method, the length of insertion and time are critical and difficult (?) for me to control. You have to balance the speed of conduction through the neck area to prevent softening the case yet enough into the neck to actually anneal. Pot of melted lead kinda does the job but sticks to the neck - leave the primer in helps some - same with torch.
Jäger
Active Member
I didn''t get into the science of it as far as you did Ian, but I did think that inserting into a solid would be handicapped to some extent from the start because it doesn't have the same uniform contact as a liquid. But I did think that you could optimize your medium by picking something like... well, your copper pots and pans. There is this (and finer) available:
Yes, I saw that quite a while ago when I was wondering what an AMP machine cost - and saw the $1500 pricetag or whatever it is before you start buying the extras and add ons. Not to attempt to throw shade on their technological approach, which is laudable, considering how much you pay for their machine, but there were a few things about that which made me curious.
First, they claim the guy (who's a member of several cast bullet forums as well as others) who makes and sells those kits says salt bath annealing is the best and easiest way to anneal. But he doesn't say that, so I wonder why they infer that he does? And their competition from the flame annealing variants vastly outstrips this one guy's kits made in his spare time. He's a P.Eng in the metals end of that profession; those kits for him are like others making PLC/PIDs - he does them in his spare time.
So they analyze the hell out of just this very, very small competitor - but unless they've done it recently, they've never put up an analysis comparing flame analysis to their induction annealing. Now why is that - wouldn't you want to show people just how superior your induction annealing is to flame annealing... especially when you can buy (or make) something like an Annaleaze for less than 1/5th the cost of their machine?
Second, I'd assume without them even doing any comparative analyse that a computerized induction annealer is almost certainly going to give better and more repeatable results than salt bath annealing (and probably flame annealing). The question for me is whether my rifles and my diminishing skills will see any difference on paper. I'm not a world class F-Class competitor with a $4,000 rifle with a $4,000 scope on top of it.
So, back again to Analyzing Made Perfect, in my retirement biz, we do a lot of statistical analysis on data done by testing samples i.e. randomly taken samples of earth sent to labs for analysis on the presence of heavy metals from industrial smokestacks. After we do that, before our professional stamp goes on the work and it goes to who contracted with us, we head back out and ground truth our analysis by collecting more samples for analysis at new spots. If those results don't fit into what our predictive analysis says they should be as far as those heavy metals... then we have a problem.
So I would think AMP would have simply started with a quick and easy comparison e.g. ten cases firing ten shot groups ten times at 1000 yards while being salt bath annealed, versus another ten being annealed with an AMP. Same rifle, same load, same bullet - what an easy and graphic way to show the world just how poor the results are out of salt bath annealing! They've done similar long string testing of their annealing, but not here.
Now why is that? I don't know, but if it really mattered to me, I'd ask them both questions: why they don't do comparative testing to flame annealing, and why they avoided doing real world testing of salt annealing simply by comparative shooting. And despite that, if I was in the high dollar shooting sports, I'd probably already own one of AMP's machines.
Anyways, there's enough stuff to bat around on that subject already, and for what I'm doing, so far fingers 'n alcohol lamp flame has been doing a pretty good job. Immersion annealing just looks like it might take up very little extra space if done in the right way, and possibly I might see an improvement on paper. Using another medium than a salt bath falls into that same analysis.
Probably true... but perhaps not. A solid media like sand, the copper above, tiny steel beads, etc should allow a case pushed into it case mouth first to stand on it's own without a frame to support it. That would mean placement in the granular media would be randomized - chances of picking the same spot twice in a row is pretty unlikely, especially if you're mindful of that.
What I wonder is how long it would take fine copper to be covered in oxides, and how much that would diminish it's ability to transfer heat.
I'm still musing about giving this a try using a pot within my casting pot. I'm trying to diminish the reloading associated stuff I have in and around my bench - not increase it.
Thanks for the response and the rational as well.
Jäger
Active Member
You know you're going to put an eye out, don't you?
Jäger
Active Member
I could troll you by telling you the P.Eng who makes those salt annealing kits in his spare time, looking at his history of posting on cast bullet and other shooting forums, mostly feels man love for lever action rifles in rimmed cartridges and single action revolvers. Maybe he had the same problems with the Annealeeze with rimmed cartridges? He's been selling those kits in his spare time longer than AMP has been around, to the best of my memory.
Without going to inspect the details ofwhat an Annealeeze look like on the Internet, how hard would it be to stick a layer of something along the feed ramp to elevate the case body sufficiently that the rim didn't drag while feeding? And then machine a relief groove along the back side of the feed rollers to accommodate any cases with rims?
I'm slightly surprised they haven't done it already if it's an issue, given the Cowboy Action guys, BPCR, etc out there who are all using rimmed cartridges.
Just a thought...
Jäger
Active Member
You know they said the exact same thing to the guy that started messing around with powder coating powder and cast bullets, right?
I've already solved that - because they're not being amused on a daily basis by flyfishermen like me, who practice conservation through incompetence. Which is why I now have extra time to wonder if I can anneal almost as easily and inexpensively doing it differently.
Jäger
Active Member
Good news there, young feller - having missed it, thanks to EvilBay you too now have a chance to own your very own BCGs!
Vintage Birth Control Glasses
Ian
Notorious member
All that would be required is to space the feed chute away from the side of the case 3/32" with little brackets instead of chain-welding it directly to the case. The rollers appear to have plenty of clearance for cartridge rims to hang off the back side just as they are.
Induction annealing of cartridge brass is VERY inefficient but effective in automated processes. Why? Heat is created in the part by eddy current heating and the rule is intensity of B (magnetic field)^2 x K / R (resistance). K is the magnetic 'capability' of the metal and it is ~zero for brass. R is also very low. It does anneal well when B, K are optimal. Flame annealing also works well but hot spots must be avoided. Not extremely hard to do but not as effective as induction. One problem is flame temp is ~ 1000C so over annealing is easy.
I propose the best way is to use a PID (800F) temp controlled 'pencil' soldering iron with proper stainless or ceramic 'expander' plug tip, inserted into the case mouth. 310 SS won't oxide fast, timing of annealing is the only variable. Only possible contact with case is the neck.
Dipping into a hot pot of silica/sand/etc would work fine but depth control is a problem. Plus I don't want my hand held over a hot pot for any period of time. as others have stated, only loading and shooting will test the results.
I propose the best way is to use a PID (800F) temp controlled 'pencil' soldering iron with proper stainless or ceramic 'expander' plug tip, inserted into the case mouth. 310 SS won't oxide fast, timing of annealing is the only variable. Only possible contact with case is the neck.
Dipping into a hot pot of silica/sand/etc would work fine but depth control is a problem. Plus I don't want my hand held over a hot pot for any period of time. as others have stated, only loading and shooting will test the results.
quicksylver
Well-Known Member
quicksylver
Well-Known Member
quicksylver
Well-Known Member
if what they say," time is money" is true , then I am one of the richest people around. Consider too, non casters think anyone who does has too much time on their hands.
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Jäger
Active Member
Perhaps... but if that was actually so, then why put so much effort into more testing, analysis, etc to throw out an additional bunch of more numbers at readers, instead of just referring to that previous data and saying "See, salt annealing sucks!"?
The testing methodology they walk readers through in that shade throwing exercise they have posted cost a hell of a lot more money and time than taking one rifle, twenty cases, and the components to a range for an afternoon of direct comparison on paper targets. Which is the point of why high end shooters anneal anyway - not to compare data tables and charts.
I think it's a fair question to ask about AMP and that paper. And I wonder when they'll do a similar analysis of the also very much less expensive Annealeeze or similar flame annealing products. And if not, why not? Why only analyze and compare salt bath annealing - their most minor competitor.
For now, I'm pretty happy with the results of my alcohol lamp and my fingers - about $15 all in for lamp and fuel for anyone starting that today. But I'm not above looking and shopping around to see if there's something else out there that will make the juice worth the squeeze of changing. Which is why I started this thread of inquiry; if I didn't value the experience and opinions of others here, I wouldn't have bothered asking.
As well as thanking you and others for taking the time to offer your opinions and experiences.
Jäger
Active Member
I'll repeat what I said earlier: I bet somebody said EXACTLY the same thing to whoever it was that first thought about trying to bake powder coating powder onto bullets instead of simply tumble lubing them. Or whatever.
And if I had too much money on my hands, I'd probably have an AMP induction annealer sitting in my reloading space right now.
But yeah... it is January, it was -20 outside this morning, so yeah, I have some extra time on my hands during this period of national house arrest along with the temperature.
You do have me on that point.