Beretta 92FS & cast bullets?
- Thread starter ChestnutLouie
- Start date
Petrol & Powder
Well-Known Member
Unless the groove diameter is bigger than .357" in both of those pistols, I'm going to say the Alox tumble lube isn't cutting it.
If you have the means to use conventional lube, I suggest NRA 50/50 or White Label BAC.
1050 fps and 16 BHn. shouldn't be that taxing in a 9mm.
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Petrol & Powder
Well-Known Member
In the - For What it's Worth category, I just slugged the barrel of my Beretta 92FS and got .3571"
I can't say that's any type of standard, but there you have it.
My RCBS .357" sizing die runs a bit large (.3576" ? IRRC) so that works out just fine.
YMMV, just tossing that out there.
I can't say that's any type of standard, but there you have it.
My RCBS .357" sizing die runs a bit large (.3576" ? IRRC) so that works out just fine.
YMMV, just tossing that out there.
CZ93X62
Official forum enigma
The best way to obtain success with 9 x 19 using cast bullets (or 40 S&W, 10mm, and probably 38 Super as well) is to treat them like you treat rifles with cast bullets. 9mm has the same high pressures that many rifles have (30K-35K PSI), and use the same fast twist rates that a lot of rifles use (1-10"). They often have short throating and abrupt leades like a lever rifle, also.
But that is only half the battle. Look at your die set, esp the expander spud diameter. I have a couple RCBS 9mm die sets, the the expander spuds in those mic @ .352" and a few tenths under .353". Even using BHn 14-15 alloy, an expander spud .005" smaller than bullet diameter WILL size down bullets during seating. Then we add in the rampant over-use of taper-crimping dies to snug up the assembly, and even more size reduction can occur. Small wonder that cast bullet cause leading in 9mm barrels.
I use the Lyman Multi-Charge Die with the #38AP expander spud. Its primary sizing surface mics a few tenths under .355", and like their M-dies the expander belt is .004" wider. The result has been no leading in my 9mm barrels for close to two decades. The slightly larger (about .001") #38P expander spud might be better for those using .358" bullets.
Accept the fact that 9mm/40 S&W/10mm pistols were never meant for cast bullets, and adapt to their needs. Consider the "Tales Of The Tape" you gather from mic-ing your die set's critical dimensions as your polygraph results regarding your barrel leading inquiry. Also accept that most modern die sets are biased toward use of jacketed bullets, and that you'll need to supplement your tooling to address these two conditions.
But that is only half the battle. Look at your die set, esp the expander spud diameter. I have a couple RCBS 9mm die sets, the the expander spuds in those mic @ .352" and a few tenths under .353". Even using BHn 14-15 alloy, an expander spud .005" smaller than bullet diameter WILL size down bullets during seating. Then we add in the rampant over-use of taper-crimping dies to snug up the assembly, and even more size reduction can occur. Small wonder that cast bullet cause leading in 9mm barrels.
I use the Lyman Multi-Charge Die with the #38AP expander spud. Its primary sizing surface mics a few tenths under .355", and like their M-dies the expander belt is .004" wider. The result has been no leading in my 9mm barrels for close to two decades. The slightly larger (about .001") #38P expander spud might be better for those using .358" bullets.
Accept the fact that 9mm/40 S&W/10mm pistols were never meant for cast bullets, and adapt to their needs. Consider the "Tales Of The Tape" you gather from mic-ing your die set's critical dimensions as your polygraph results regarding your barrel leading inquiry. Also accept that most modern die sets are biased toward use of jacketed bullets, and that you'll need to supplement your tooling to address these two conditions.
Petrol & Powder
Well-Known Member
I agree with what CZ93X62 wrote and I'll add a little.
Not only are the expanders included with most pistol dies geared toward jacketed bullets, so are the powder through expanders (powder funnels) used on progressive machines. Most of my handgun ammunition loading is done on a progress machine so that necessitates a custom made expander for cast bullets.
I also agree that 9mm/40 S&W/10mm were designed around jacketed bullets from the very beginning. Now that didn't stop reloaders and bullet casters from developing good cast bullet loads. There's nothing wrong with cast bullets and the 9mm Luger cartridge BUT it was originally designed as a jacket bullet and it is a high pressure cartridge.
I can make cast bullets work in a 9mm (and so can countless other people) but I find I must load to ONE particular gun.
Not only are the expanders included with most pistol dies geared toward jacketed bullets, so are the powder through expanders (powder funnels) used on progressive machines. Most of my handgun ammunition loading is done on a progress machine so that necessitates a custom made expander for cast bullets.
I also agree that 9mm/40 S&W/10mm were designed around jacketed bullets from the very beginning. Now that didn't stop reloaders and bullet casters from developing good cast bullet loads. There's nothing wrong with cast bullets and the 9mm Luger cartridge BUT it was originally designed as a jacket bullet and it is a high pressure cartridge.
I can make cast bullets work in a 9mm (and so can countless other people) but I find I must load to ONE particular gun.
Buy a lathe and none of that matters anymore.
I use many custom powder dies for expanding on my Dillon 550. Have made some custom seaters and taper crimp dies as well.
A tight barrel 9mm is easy but start running .358 bullets and things can get dicey with the dies and expanders.
I use many custom powder dies for expanding on my Dillon 550. Have made some custom seaters and taper crimp dies as well.
A tight barrel 9mm is easy but start running .358 bullets and things can get dicey with the dies and expanders.
ChestnutLouie
Active Member
What is WD?
What is WST?
WD is water dropped, drip bullet from mould straight into water. Gives harder bullets. Just be sure to size same day because after they have a day or more to harden they are a pain to size.
WST is a Win powder designed for shot shells but with good handgun utility as well.
WST is a Win powder designed for shot shells but with good handgun utility as well.
ChestnutLouie
Active Member
I water quench all 9mm bullets and again if powder coated.
however they aren’t gaining hardness like I expected. I buy wheel weight alloy from a guy and who knows how many stick ons are in his mix. Quenching only gives me 15 bhn (for this batch?)
15 BHn is plenty for 9mm. I am using closer to 12 with no problems. Fit is far more important that hardness.
If powder coating no point in water dropping from the mould, any hardness they gain is lost when baking the powder coat. Water dropping from PC cure is t quite as good- temp is lower and time is too short for Max effect.
In the end of it works keep doing it
If powder coating no point in water dropping from the mould, any hardness they gain is lost when baking the powder coat. Water dropping from PC cure is t quite as good- temp is lower and time is too short for Max effect.
In the end of it works keep doing it
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ChestnutLouie
Active Member
Yesterday I loaded 50+ Powder coated rounds using Lyman #2 alloy that I water quenched both when cast and just out of the power coat oven. Over 4.0 grains of Alliant Sport Pistol which gives me 1050 FPS . Sized to .357”. Hopefully I’ll get a chance to go to the range in the next few days.
Thanks
Francis
Thanks
Francis
ChestnutLouie
Active Member
Petrol & Powder
Well-Known Member
Not really.
A 9mm (or just about any other handgun cartridge that headspaces on the case mouth) has rifling that starts immediately in front of the chamber. The lead into that rifling can be short and abrupt or it can be a little longer and gentle. PLUS, the bore and groove diameters of different barrels can (and often do) vary.
That video addresses free bore in a rifle chamber/barrel setup and that's not quite the issue.
Starting with the bore diameter issue - the bore diameter is the diameter of the bore BEFORE the rifling is cut in the barrel. It is the distance from the top of one land to top of an opposite land. In a 9mm barrel the bore diameter should be about .346".
The groove diameter is the distance from the bottom of one groove to the bottom of an opposite groove. (or if there is a odd number grooves, the diameter of the circle that exactly contains the bottom of all the grooves). On a 9mm barrel that diameter SHOULD be .355" (it is often larger; with .356" & .357" being common diameters and sometimes even larger).
So, there can be some potential problems with the size of a bullet when dealing with varying types of throats (in this case we are referring to the section of the barrel directly in front of the chamber) AND there can be potential problems with varying bore and groove diameters.
If the rifling starts abruptly a cartridge with a "fat" bullet may not chamber. Even if the casing is the appropriate size for the chamber, a bullet that is too large may prevent the cartridge from fully entering the chamber if the rifling starts abruptly. This can be remedied by "throating" the barrel and making that transition from the chamber to the rifled portion of the barrel a bit more gradual. This provides a bit more room for the bullet when the cartridge is fully seated in the chamber.
Then we have the issues caused by varying bore & groove diameters. Let's say we have a groove diameter of .358" and we use a bullet sized to .356" While that cartridge may chamber without difficulty, that bullet is undersized for the barrel. That combination will likely result in excessive leading due to an incomplete seal between the bullet and the barrel.
SO- we need a bullet that is "fat" enough to properly seal the barrel BUT isn't too large to chamber or cause excessive pressure.
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ChestnutLouie
Active Member
I shot about 60 rounds of water quenched at cast and powder coating and sized to .357”
much less leading, but not perfect.
I use a expanding die from NOE when loading 300 blackout and it expands the whole case neck and a slight flair at the case mouth. I hope that I don’t have to go to this length.
ChestnutLouie
Active Member
Petrol & Powder
Well-Known Member
I can't speak to powder coating, that's outside my bailiwick.
Are you using an expander die when loading your 9mm Luger cartridges and if so; what type of expander?
Are you using an expander die when loading your 9mm Luger cartridges and if so; what type of expander?