Bullet slump

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freebullet

Guest
My lids all shot up & the carpet chunks hold the mulch in fine. Once it's shot a bit the lid is just a formality. It didn't damage handgun boolits up to 357 mag unless they hit each other. Have not tried 454 on it yet as the bucket needs emptied & replaced.
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
Cardboard I can get. I can easily get a bunch of cardboard boxes. Easy to fill them with mulch, line them up, and let em rip. Fired at 100 or 200 yards would reduce damage a little as velocity would drop a bit.

Freebullet, I may well need to meet you at the range sometime this spring. We can do some testing with a variety of guns and see what we get. Only one way to find out, isn't there?
 

Ian

Notorious member
The experiment would probably give the most meaningful results if it was performed with a "standard", .30-caliber cast bullet load in a rifle cartridge capable of getting a 180-ish grain bullet up to at least 2500 fps. Use something like a Lyman 311407 or even a 311299 at first, load it the normal way with conventional dies, use WW alloy or 92-6-2, air cooled, and start out with 4198 or similar and get it dialed in for at least MOA groups at around 1800 fps. Catch some of those bullets FROM A GOOD GROUP. Then push velocity up until the group starts falling apart and catch some of those bullets, particularly flyers if possible to ID and locate them. Then keep pushing velocity (powder change or two will likely be necessary, maybe try staying in the same approximate peak pressure range for all testing but use slower powders to get more velocity) and catch some more bullets as the groups continue to get larger. Compare all bullets carefully to see if anything visible has changed that could explain the group expansion.

I actually doubt in the above scenario that there will be much difference between the bullets visually, the increased group size is likely due to damage already present in the 1800 fps examples but accentuated by the higher velocity and rpm. However, work could be done to improve the higher-velocity groups to get them shooting to the same accuracy level as the 1800 fps groups and those bullets compared.
 

Ian

Notorious member
Hey Brad, don't you know the best catch medium ever devised is actually naturally-occurring in some places this time of year? It's called SNOW! Got some?
 
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freebullet

Guest
Brad hasn't heard about carhartt coveralls & layering to stay warm. He is in hibernation mode momentarily, I'll bet definitely through the Temps we're forecasted to get this weekend.
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
We ain't got enough snow. We mght have a few inches. Now it we had a foot and a half, maybe.
I will shoot over snow but I want decent weather. Last 3 days have been snow/ran/fog. It sucks.
Cold is coming this weekend, fine with me. I will be working the weekend so cold isn't an issue.

Luckily I have a few other projects going.
 

JWFilips

Well-Known Member
The 5 gallon bucket packed hard with rubber mulch is amazing on how it stops a bullet; Pistol or rifle in that short distance! That is a goo way to recover slugs that look almost perfect.

I'm interested in this thread for a reason I'm just about to start a thread on plain basing some of my rifle moulds using Ben's system. All have been pretty successful except one. I messed up a cavity in my NOS .326180 Ranch Dog. My initial Plain basing was off center so I tried to fix it ( not a good idea) My drill went too deep and cut out the lowest lube groove ....Now I have fired this bullet when it was still a gas checked bullet ( without the gas check) and also when I made the initial off center Plain basing ( but retained the lower lube groove) These two versions of this bullet shot excellent with 5 grains of Red Dot at 50 yards . Ragged hole 10 shot groups ( I know I'm not talking high speed here but I think your thread is on to something) Now when I shot the additionally modified bullet ( No lower lube groove ) I get a lot of leading the first inch in the barrel ( Groups still are good) Can't believe this slight change would have messed up a good load.
Ben suggested a slower powder So I went to unique however it seemed to work once until this morning & it is back. alloy has not changed
 

Ian

Notorious member
Also a little bit of Dacron can help cork it up until the bullet is engraved. Done that lots on .30-30 loads with heavier plain-based bullets.
 

RBHarter

West Central AR
I experimented with 1 bullet and alloy . A 30 cal of 200 gr hacked out of an older Lee that wasn't working for me .
Red Dot got me to 1200 fps
Unique got me to 1400 fps
4198 fell apart before 1500 fps
4350 will pull 1800 fps but only paper patched .

More over this holds true in both 1-8.5 twists even though 1 is x39 and the other is 06'. In a 1-10 there doesn't seem to be a happy place above 1200 fps with any powder in two 06'.
The 1-12 308 won't cooperate at all ( the bullet is 1.2 long so there's no real surprise in that as it won't shoot anything over 175 gr regardless of shape ) .

If twist/rpm were the culprit then the slower twists should shoot faster .
The same is true mechanically of powders . The slower twist should allow faster acceleration and as a result lower pressures per load. At least in my rifles ,not the case .

I have another small case rifle that will flat out get the job done with heavy for cartridge ,nominal for caliber cast bullets nipping at the heels of jacketed and matching or besting accuracy.

I even have a PB of nominal weight that is faster than its jacketed book loads on less of the same powder and shoots as well.

These examples tend to make me think that the powder particulars of not only speed and pressure peak but it's burn curve in arriving there has much to do with how it all works out . I hope that looks as clear as it sounded rattling in my head .
Some powders work well at low speed with a convex curve ,meaning a big jump into a flat increasing curve that just quits like Red Dot. At the other end you have the slow 4831 4350 powders with a comparitively concave curve that starts low and grows all the way down the bbl causing gas autos to do weird things .

Mechanically I can't see how both work , I'm forced to see simply that they do because 1 forces the bullet to seal by a swift kick in the base and the other gently pushes it up to speed with a little hit about 3/4 of the bbl length.

Why will the same bullet go faster at higher pressures with 2 wraps of paper ? Well slump doesn't fit nor does rpm . You can only go faster by getting slicker or pushing harder . Either way the bullets that slump naked should also wrapped. Rpm is out because the faster bullet is spinning faster . That can only leave the ,metaphorical, 4 bbl pop of acceleration responsible for group failure all other things being equal.
 
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freebullet

Guest
The only time I have actually witnessed boolit slump is when my oven temp ran away.
 

James W. Miner

Active Member
Slump should be described as the nose setting back, not base expansion for obturation to seal. slump will give you a different boolit then you cast. th_slump.jpg This is slump. Slump is bad as it can be off center.
Most happens at once before the boolit moves. That depends on alloy and powder. Fast powders that peak instantly are worse. You think a light load of unique is easy on a boolit but 2400 at full pressure is better. Move the curve forward instead of at ignition is better.
Then a long bore ride boolit in a rifle the that slumps to fill grooves is also wrong. Then bore ride should not slump into grooves, it should ride lands. Who says the bore ride slumps into grooves straight?
 

S Mac

Sept. 10, 2021 Steve left us. You are missed.
Great pic for us newbies James. Was this a softer alloy?
 

Ian

Notorious member
RBHarter, that's the stuff I'm talking about. What's intuitive doesn't always occur because there are sometimes forces at work that we didn't realize, so we scratch out heads and do some more shooting and ponder "Now, what caused it to do that?".

Thinking in terms of second derivatives instead of fX=whatever helps me imagine pressure rise/volume and how it relates to bullet acceleration and deformation. It's not just "curve" we should consider, but the area under that curve that does the work, while the shape of the curve tells how and when the pressure is applied.

Here's another thing I did which has influenced my thinking: I have taken some bullets cast from the same pot of alloy and done two different things with them, then shot them in the same rifle with very different results. First group was gas-checked, lubed, sized to throat entrance diameter, and loads worked up to find best powder and charge at highest velocity that would hold 1 MOA at 100 yards. Other group was run through a push-through sizer right after water-dropping and wet-patched with rag paper. The patched bullets were lubed with a little soft beeswax/Vaseline mixture. Both bullets fired out of a .308 Winchester bolt rifle, ten-twist. The best I could manage with the checked/lubed bullets after a lot of work was 2300 fps. I pushed the paper-patched bullets with a variety of powder burn rates as fast as pressure for the cartridge would allow (based on extractor scuffs, primer cratering, and case head expansion), usually easily achieving MOA accuracy and often better. I topped out at over 2700 fps with a 172-grain bullet if that is any indication of how much peak pressure my loads were making. Ok, I repeat: SAME BULLETS FROM SAME PILE, SAME RIFLE. Minus gas check and plus a couple wraps of paper, the difference was night and day. My conclusions? First, the concept that the forces of high RPM acting on casting defects because we can't cast a bullet that's up to the task is complete and utter hogwash. Second, that a given alloy can withstand a LOT more pressure and steepness of launch pressure curve than I keep reading about, provided that land engagement isn't a limiting factor, and a few other things. When the jacket is removed, the pressure curve becomes super-critical. I think cast bullet accuracy limits have more to do with bullet/land-groove engagement under high acceleration than is commonly thought.

You mentioned slower powders doing weird things in auto-loaders, I have too. Not only high port pressure, but erratic port pressure throwing the barrel harmonics all over the map. The M1A is a good teacher of many things.
 

JWFilips

Well-Known Member
To Answer fiver: The bullets were lube in Ben's Red and 2 tumble coats of BLL To answer Ian, I will try the tuff of Dacron filler for the next time & will report back
Ian I'm very interested in your last post about paper patching (Shortly I will open a thread...I have an idea Maybe paper acting will work in My Mauser98 JP Sauer don't know nothing about that stuff so many I can learn something new)
 

RBHarter

West Central AR
I mentioned the slow powder as I wandered into a magical place where the heavy for cartridge gas checked bullet was making correct port pressure but doing so before the case/chamber pressure dropped off . That resulted in the bolt holding open on the mag follower instead of the hold open . The bullet in the case of this gas gun didn't show the bullet failure up as the usual ,smaller ,smaller , where'd they go lead in the bore . They just opened back up . So 4198 is as slow as you can go for full power with a NOE 279-124 in a 6.8 Remington SPCII with a mid length gas in a 16 inch bbl . This is great but it comes up just short of the required 1k@100....by 50 fps....... I did find a couple of bugs to kill so maybe it'll make it yet . This rifle seems to be matched perfectly with the cartridge and bullet so that helps too. I am able to drive the 75/25 WW - 1-20 to 2400 with powders from RL 10X to 4198
 

KHornet

Well-Known Member
Have messed with Rubber mulch with handgun, but never rifle. Will try freebullets bucket method, and maybe mix some sand and mulch in the mix. Would be good for testing some of the plain base, low vols, and also good for 100/200 yd rifle work.
 
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freebullet

Guest
Khornet
You & Brad are welcome to use my catcher bucket. Test it out, shoot it up, no problem.