Crimp on 38 Spec wad cutters...question ....Light or Heavy

[abj]

I'm with CW, My Bullseye load is 3.5 unique with Lee 148 bnwc, crimped in the groove. We did a test of several 10 shot groups with each crimp with a smith 15 and an ultradot at 25 yds. First was no crimp just eliminate the belling. The next series of 1/4 turn each of the Lee FCD adjustment for a full turn from the no crimp position. The 3/4 position was the best by a longshot (pun intended). When we got back around to the starting point (1 full turn) the group almost doubled. The best ctc group measured .8 inches and the avg for that crimp was a tad over an inch. We used a round black aiming point just bigger than the ultradot's dot. Specs on that revolver and load is 4 inch factory barrel (taylor throated), cylinders reamed to .358. All brass was Federal wadcutter brass trimmed and all primer pocket reamed and flash holes were deburred. Federal spp.
Here is where it get interesting. Switch to r/p wadcutter brass with the same process applied, the second position is as tight as they would shoot. Almost can't see the crimp without a magnifying glass. Any more and the groups grew. Winchester wadcutter brass, I just couldn't get close to the other two no matter what I did.
When we switched powders to either Bullseye or HP-38 we had to do it all over again. Best I can tell the crimp is powder and charge level specific. One interesting thing that happened later is we switched to 20:1 alloy vs 94/2/4 alloy and the 20/1 is much more forgiving and not near as picky to loading techniques.
After all that work with wadcutters we all switched to the Lee 105 swc with HP-38, softer recoil and better accuracy at 50 yds and about the same at 25 yds.
I still keep several hundred rounds of w/c's for plinking in the non-target and cowboy guns as they shoot to the fixed sights of most 38's. In case anyone has a fast twist PPC revolver laying around they are accurate to 109 yds (100 Meters) rams with boring consistency. Mine is a Travis Strahan, but I haven't measured the twist.
Tony

 

[Edward R Southgate]

I've owned a 39 and a 59 both , didn't like either one . The 52 is a whole nother animal with the other two not even in the same class .

 

[Petrol & Powder]

I've owned a 39 and a 59 both , didn't like either one . The 52 is a whole nother animal with the other two not even in the same class .

At the risk of annoying some, I'll add my $0.02 worth.

S&W makes awesome revolvers.
S&W made a few awesome pistols, but I don't think pistols are their strong suit,

 

[CZ93X62]

I have owned and carried about a dozen S&W 2nd & 3rd Generation 9mm, 40 S&W, 10mm, and 45 ACP. All were reliable, decent sidearms. None remain with me, because parts and mags largely disappeared when S&W discontinued the lines. I have ZERO use for a firearm or vehicle that is hard to find spares for. Down the road it goes, in such cases. Most accurate? The 645, incredibly so; only my Gold Cup exceeds it. The one I miss? The 3913, it remains the most perfect-fitting compact pistol (to my hands) I have ever owned.

Thread drift? THREAD DRIFT??!! WE DON' NEED NO STEENKEENG THREAD DRIFT!!

One trait of S&W bottom-feeders I did enjoy was the lead-friendliness of their barrels. The twist rates in 9mm/10mm/40 S&W were insanely-fast (1-10"), but hard alloy/soft lubes and proper sizing made them behave very well. There was zero accuracy fall-off between jacketed and cast bullets in any of those pistols.

 

[Rick H]

Well, since you started it P&P.

I broke in with S&W Wheelguns and Colt Auto's. I used to say you couldn't give me a Colt revolver, nor a S&W Auto. That included the vastly over rated and overpriced Python. I have never handled nor shot a Colt revolver that had a decent double action trigger. They all have a hitch in the giddyup that is just unacceptable to what I consider the proper double action trigger stroke. True my S&W's were from the early and mid 70's but I still prefer them to Colts, that hitch and the tendency to stack is just unacceptable. I still feel that way about Colt double action revolvers. There is no great science in making a Smith run well. Colts, even when worked over by supposedly master smiths have crappy triggers. They sure are pretty....but not for me
.
Autoloaders? In the old days, there was the 1911 Gov't model and the Commander. Loved both of them even though they took some modifications for me to be comfy carrying them as a lefty. I was/am sour on the 9mm and the Smith's double action auto triggers were awful. M39's functioned pretty well, but M59's were an abomination. The big auto's that came down the pike later didn't fit my hand and I ended up carrying a Sig P220 when they told me I couldn't carry my Colt. Then we switched to Glocks....ugh.

I am mellowing as I age and my current carry gun is a Shield 40. Don't laugh. It fits my hand, carries well, and I can put 3 shots on a piece of writing paper at 20 yds. in under 3 seconds......on demand........every time, no mater the clothing I am wearing. I did replace the factory 3-dot sights with tritium 2 dot (figure 8) night sights.

We are all the result of our life's experiences. I have a fond spot for S&W, one of their revolvers saved mine and another's hide one dark cold night in January 1977. Perhaps if I was carrying a Colt???? Nah!!!!!!! still take the Smith.

 

[Petrol & Powder]

CZ93X62 - I'm with you on the S&W 645. S&W got that one right ! I don't know why that model stands out, but it does. I've never seen one that wouldn't shoot well.
The Model 39 or 59 are OK in my book but they never impressed me. The Model 52 is a different story. That is a very specialized 1st gen S&W target pistol.
The S&W Model 41 is a nice target .22 but, IMO, a bit overpriced. In my younger days I used a slightly tweaked Ruger MKII to surprise a few S&W Model 41 owners.

Of the second Gen S&W pistols, only the 645 has earned my admiration. Never found a 3rd Gen that I wanted.
I never hated any of the S&W autoloaders but with a few exceptions, I never really warmed up to them.

Rick, My view of Colt revolvers isn't too far from yours. The DA trigger on a Colt is not for me. I've had several Colt revolvers over the years and still have a Detective Special. The Colt DA revolvers are not bad guns but I'll take a S&W or Ruger over most of them.
I will not call the lockwork of a Colt DA "weak" but I will unequivocally say the S&W and Ruger actions are stronger. The actions of S&W and Ruger's are far more to my liking.

 

[CZ93X62]

I have quite a few Colts scattered inside the safe. The V-spring Colt double-action system is (my view, and that of the late Leo Reyes) not meant for pure double-action firing; it was intended to be fired primarily in single action mode, with double-action firing only under exigent circumstances. Rapid and sustained D/A firing will cause them to get out of time, and that was OK before WWII when there were LOTS of gunsmiths trained on the Colt system throughout the USA. Both S&W and Ruger D/A revolvers are MEANT to be double-action fired as a matter of course.

I can run all three makers' D/A triggers without much strain. The systems vary, and you need to set your mind to the system you are using and adjust to its "attitudes". Two of my Colts--a 4" Police Positive (38 S&W) and a 5" Army Special (32/20) have EXCELLENT D/A strokes; both were made in the early 1920s. A 1901-made New Pocket 6" in 32 S&W Long and a 1949-made Officer's Model Target (38 Special) have D/A triggers that are more typical of Colt V-springs, with the stacking effect spoken of previously. That OMT is my wadcutter gun.

 

[Petrol & Powder]

Well I just learned something. Thank You.
I've had the V-spring Colt DA's and the newer coil spring versions. I never saw the older V-spring design as a primarily SA gun, but that makes a lot of sense.
The coil spring models, like the Trooper Mark V, do not have that prominent trigger stacking near the end of the DA stroke. The internal parts are also a bit larger. A lot of folks tuned their noses up at the coil spring Colt revolvers but I always considered them to be a bit more durable than the D-frame Police Positive Special.
Colt's are capable of fine accuracy and some of that accuracy can probably be attributed to the workmanship put into the barrels. (which is why Colt barrels were sometimes fitted to Smith or Ruger frames in PPC guns)
I'm capable of operating the DA trigger on the Colts, S&W and Ruger systems and I agree you have to get your head around whichever system you're using. The S&W requires a smooth straight through pull. The Ruger can be staged after the cylinder locks but before the hammer falls, although with repetition, you don't even think about it. The Colt DA doesn't lock until the moment of firing and the trigger stacking is a bit distracting to me.

 

[CZ93X62]

The Mk III and Mk V Colts are real sleepers. Simple and robust internals, and their 357s are as strong as the L-frame S&Ws. DEFINITELY capable of full-time D/A firing.

 

[JWFilips]

The problem with PC is it is very slippery. I would try increasing the powder charge slightly, like 7%.

For some reason that I'll probably spend the rest of my life attempting to solve, powder coated bullets tend to clump into multiple groups.

If you wanted to help with the quest, next time load a batch with a wash of BLL over the PC and compare to same load without BLL.

Crimp can help ignition consistency insome instances but there is more to consistent loads than that. Unless you're trimming brass every firing, a significant crimp doesn't ADD much consistency but actually introduces another variable.

Finally got to try the wad cutters with the PC and an overcoat of BLL.........It works!
Groups were more consistant.
I did not change anything else just overcoated the pc bullets with BLL! Amazing

 

[Ian]

Thanks for the report Jim.

 

[fiver]

I wish I could access that write up I did entitled 'does your lube have enough friction'.
I'm sure it's off annoying some clouds electrons somewhere or other, but it's beyond my reach.

anyway it discussed this very thing.

 

[waco]

I’ll have to try the BLL and see if it helps my load. I just started playing around with WC’s in my 14-2. The mold is an RCBS 148gr DEWC. I loaded 50 into once fired WW wadcutter brass and used CCI spp. 2.7gr of BE was the charge. I’ll have to shoot off the rest next time. This time out I was just shooting off hand at 15 yards. This was about the average size group.it measures 1.7”
I don't recall the alloy. WWish I think. These were powder coated and sized to .358"
I have some 1-20 alloy on the way.

 

[Ian]

That's about what most of my .38s do from a bench rest.

@fiver , here: https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sh...-lube-have-enough-friction&highlight=Friction

 

[Ian]

Crazy how almost every person who posted on that thread has been banned, quit, deleted, or is dead.

 

[waco]

That's about what most of my .38s do from a bench rest.

I was looking back at my notes. This was shot offhand at 10 yards, not 15. My bad.

 

[CZ93X62]

Using BULLET LUBE to rectify ballistic inconsistency due to POWDER COATING. This is just too good.

I was the guy in some past life that put the pig's bladder under the Queen's throne seat cushions, I know. Such things bring great joy.

 

[CZ93X62]

Crazy how almost every person who posted on that thread has been banned, quit, deleted, or is dead.

Most of the surviving emigres seem to have landed here, too. Funny how that works.

I remember that thread from 7 years ago. A lot of folks whose knowledge and work product I greatly respect posted there. I just looked on and absorbed the info, I was out of my depth then and to some extent remain so today.

 

[JWFilips]

Ok after seeing the results of this over coating on pc bullets.......
I started thinking.......I have had the same thing happening with low node shooting in my 243 winchester !
Using PC only coated NOE 105 gr bullets 10 shot groups would shot 2 to 3 one hole groups per target and I kept blaming my scope!
Then I remembered the target I last shot with the 243 win! Post #39 https://www.artfulbullet.com/index....ow-node-rifle-targets-i-have-shot.4490/page-2
I just checked my load card with the shot brass as well as the original paper target..... Hard to believe but Those PC bullets had a light coat of BLL on them because when I was baking them some fell over and I felt the coating may be compromised and I did not want to take a chane=ce on leading the bore!
When I typed the info up on the photo I posted.... I did not note that they had a BLL overcoat! But they did and it was my best Low Node group with the 243 ever! This Overcoat think is making more since all the time!

 

[Ian]

Using BULLET LUBE to rectify ballistic inconsistency due to POWDER COATING. This is just too good.

I was the guy in some past life that put the pig's bladder under the Queen's throne seat cushions, I know. Such things bring great joy.

Now you know how I feel about washing bullets that have already had the grooves filled with Ben's Red with Ben's Liquid Lube. Evidently one makes up for the deficiencies of the other in certain circumstances, BUT...(as you would say) "C'mon, mange!"

The erratic cluster phenomena of powder-coated rifle bullets I can only attribute to slight variances of bore condition (C.O.R.E). When your bullet is presenting a consistent and firm load/resistance to the powder charge, then barrel time and barrel harmonics will also be consistent. When the condition changes, we see flyers (cold barrel syndrome, anyone?)

Following that, we know that polymer jackets reduce engraving resistance and barrel friction considerably, and we also know that too-slippery conventional lubes don't produce tight or consistent groups. However, I don't blame the reduced friction alone for these troubles, but for magnifying any slight inconsistencies in anything which affects the movement of the bullet through the gun. Powder paint is not a perfect jacket and needs all the help we can give it at high velocity. Gas checks are a must, as is a smooth throat and correct bullet diameter. My operating hypothesis regarding BLL over the powder paint is that the light lube film will smooth out the little bumps and jerks and ultimately make the time tje bullet spends in the gun after ignition more consistent.

Of course we then have to contend with the irregularities that film lubricants introduce, i.e. cold barrel syndrome, flyers after cleaning, and so on.