Effect of Powder Coating on bullet velocity

[Tomme boy]

I never cared for 2400. I moved away and went to 5744 and H4895 for all my 30cal. I also ran gas checks on everything. And don't be afraid to use some dacron to hold the powder down. Just don't stuff it in all against the powder. It has to stay fluffy. 1gr to 1.5gr of it is all you need. I use the torn up dog toys laying around the house to get the stuffing out of it.

 

[Ian]

My 2400, by Alliant and formerly Hercules, has always been very fine-grained spheres. It is technically abshotgung powder and engineered to work in small spaces (compressed) with high expansion ratio (straight walls), heavy payloads, and a very hot ignition source. Put it in a big case at liw density with a light payload in front and it can get erratic.

Ok, way back to the beginning of your last post, you contradicted yourself by saying you size .001 over groove but size to .313 for what I understand is typically a .308" bore. Simply put, I find the best results with pc bullets happen when they are sized somewhere in between jax bullets and the typical lubed cast size the rifle likes. Finding the right size is a balance of acheiving low engraving pressure (only really important for plain based bullets and/or rifle type loads with powders faster than, say, 4198), giving the bullet room to self-align into the center of the throat as it begins to move out of the case neck, and giving it support to remain straight as it engraves and squeezes into the bore.

The Saeco 315 is very similar to the Eagan MX3 if I recall correctly, but I always thought it was a 200+ grain bullet. My mistake.

 

[Snakeoil]

Maybe it was how I said it that caused misunderstanding. My bore slugged to 0.313. I said my way was to size to groove dia or .001 over. So I am sizing to groove, or attempting to with .313 die. Only the GC is sized because bullets are closer to .312. But some run .313.

My 2400 is NOT spherical. It is very short pieces of stick. Some of the pieces are same length as diameter and with edges knocked off can look sperical. Been this way since buying it last year. Just took this pic. Zoom in to see.]

Could be original 315 was 200gr and the Meister bullet is a variation.

 

[fiver]

the 2400 I have [4 different series of powder] is like a flattened stick powder, think of something like a 165gr 45 caliber bullet where it's a bit wider than it is long.
at first glance it looks like sand.
one lot of it is black like shown above, the rest has a brown color with black undertones.
the black has a different density than both of the older lots [it is denser] and one newer lot is back to the same appearance [but I haven't yet checked it's density]
the burn rate pretty much stayed the same.

 

[Brad]

Don’t sell it! 2400 is my most used rifle powder with cast. I just understand the limitations and work within them. My 45-70 loves the stuff but I understand it is position sensitive. I could use some filler to reduce that but for my needs it just isn’t an issue. When I shot lever gun silhouette I didn’t understand why did well on the 50 and 100 yard targets but poor at 150 and 200. Looking back it was the position sensitive 2400 load I used. A little filler would have reduced that.
Never used that bullet as I am a mould poor guy who likes to find a single bullet for a cartridge and stick to it. My Marlin 30-30 does well with a 165 RD so I never purchased any other moulds for it,

I would certainly call 2400 a short stick powder. It does like a bit of pressure to burn clean. Lower pressure loads like to leave a few yellowish colored kernels here and there.

Keep on shooting. I learned far more from what didn’t work than from what did. Might be a surplus of failures compared to successes?

 

[Tomme boy]

0.313" on a 3006 Springfield? Was that the throat or the bore?

 

[Snakeoil]

0.313" on a 3006 Springfield? Was that the throat or the bore?

That is the groove diameter of the barrel. But I have to kill some time today waiting for a delivery. So, I'll go slug the barrel again and confirm.

 

[Snakeoil]

What I like about 2400 is it meters so nicely from my Uniflow. I made a baffle for it and it will drop 18.0 gr consistently. I check every 5th or 10th round with my Dillion digital scale and rarely is the charge not right on the money.

I try to keep things simple. Stuffing batting down the neck of an 06 case with tweezers is right up there with raking leaves for me. I might resign myself to the need to do it. But I'll much rather prefer to avoid the tedium associated with that step. I am not one who finds reloading therapeutic. Casting bullets is one of the worst things I've ever done and that is why I buy those 315 bullets from Meister's. If they came sized, lubed and GC installed, I'd like them even more. Yet, I shoot with guys who love to cast bullets. They find it relaxing. When I was hand dipping that Paul Jones mould for my Shiloh, it was like watching paint dry. I'll cast if I have to. And if I can bottom pour from my RCBS pot into a multi-cavity mould, that would be even better because I'd see progress.

Is there a powder better suited to what I'm shooting, which is the 315 GC bullet in my 03 Spfld. My shooting partner said he tried 4198 and had good results, but then ran out and when the others at the club suggested 2400, he gave it a try. I also talked to him about SD in smokeless loads and he agreed that single digit, in the neighborhood of 5 is what he looks for when he's testing his jacketed loads. I mentioned some of the comments made by guys at the club who have been shooting for quite a while. He chuckled and said he likes all the guys, but there is a sizeable BS factor when it comes to shooting info. Oh, and he also reconfirmed that he saw 2400 to 2500 fps with the load that started this discussion. He's going to go back and recheck since he has the data on his phone. We both use a ProChronoDLX that talks to your phone and puts all the data there wirelessly. After years with a PACT, the DLX is truly a joy to use.

I'm going to go slug my barrel.

Update: Barrel slugged. 0.311 about 5 inches back from the muzzle. So, this thread was helpful if for no other reason (and there are more) than it made me recheck the groove diameter. Thinking back, that 0.313 dimension was based upon a chamber cast I did last year. It would appear that the temps in my basement might have screwed up the accuracy of the chamber cast. But it could also be that the bore has a slight choke to it and 0.313 is the groove diameter just forward of the chamber.

 

[Snakeoil]

Last night I dug out all my reloading book and OEM booklets going back to the 90's and maybe earlier. The info regarding pressure affecting burn rate is mentioned slightly, but more between the lines. It's easy to miss if you are reading for the first time. The same SAAMI stuff is pretty much in all of them, word for word and all related to safety, storage, shipping, etc.

There is very little on reduced loads. The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook has about the most, and for obvious reasons. But the powder that jumped out was Accurate 5744. The one booklet I have from them actually has a page announcing the reintroduction of that powder. The thing that stood out was the design criteria included insensitivity to powder position in reduced loads. It is also intended for large case BP rounds and they mention using some .50 cal BP cases in their testing. Tommie had mentioned his like of 5744 for .30 cal. So, I may pick up a pound and see what it will do.

There is an old article by Uncle Frank in the LCBH specifically about .30-06 and his uncle's ability to get great accuracy with a few key tenets. 1600 fps seemed to be key, at least at 100 and 200 yds. He also found that the Lyman 311284 bullet to be his favorite and a little research on the web shows it still to be a favorite.

I have a book on precision long range shooting that I picked up at the Pine Tree Rifle Club (where BRS was born) swap meet last year. It's very thick, about the size of the LCBH. I suspect it will be mostly about shooting jacketed ammo, but there have to be shared aspects with cast bullets at long ranges. I need to dig into it before warm weather arrives and reading time is displaced with outdoor stuff.

We are breaking temperature records today in the People's Republic of New Yawk. Thermometer says 62F on my office window and it's only 11:45am. So, I'm not spending anymore time banging on this keyboard.

 

[Brad]

I like 5744 but don’t use much due to the extremely high price. Most of the time it is far more expensive than any other powder on the shelf. I’m not talking a buck or two either, more like 10-15 bucks a pound more.

 

[fiver]

now I think your starting to pick things up.
the little subtle hints are there you just have to read through the lines and see what some of them are saying.
they won't ever come out and say this or that so you have to pick and poke and,, and follow the powder kind of like a stalker through the reloading manuals to start to see their trends.
then you have to set up some tests of your own and force the powder into favorable and unfavorable positions and see what it does.

you know 2400 has some company in it's burn rate area.
one of them might be better suited in the 0-6 and 2400 might win in the 308.
others to look at are accurate 4100, and that new 410 powder from Alliant, I would also explore 4227 in the 0-6 case it allows you to use a higher volume of powder for the same speed.
4100 will meter better than 2400 but will occupy a little less room, and it will take just a bit less for the same velocity.
I haven't dealt with the 410 stuff since it isn't available locally.

 

[Spindrift]

Interesting thread!
@Snakeoil
For what it’s worth; my favourite powder for the load level you are using, is vihtavuori N-110. This is an extruded, single base powder. 17-20 grs in a 30-06- case, with bullet weights 130-220grs. Very good accuracy, clean necks, very consistent performer.

 

[Tomme boy]

Look up Shooters World powder. They have one called Buffalo Powder. It is supposed to 5744 but at $20/lb. I have not used it but others have said it is very very close to exact charges and speeds. So take that for what it is worth. I also stopped using 5744 because of the price.

Lots say it does not burn clean till the upper end of the charges. But I never had that problem in 308W and 7.62x54r. I am down to about 3lbs. I am going to pick up some of the Buffalo Powder at the next gun show. If it works out I will be getting a few jugs to have on hand.

 

[Snakeoil]

The price of the powder is really not a concern for me. But I did notice it was not cheap. I use match primers for their consistency.

I am pretty sure I have some 4227 in my cabinet. Pretty old. I think it was something my Dad had and he left this Earth in 1987. I'll smell it to see if any deterioration has taken place. Is 2700 position sensitive?

Interesting that 4100 will meter better than 2400. I was impressed with the consistency of 2400.

I think for the present time, I'm going to bump up the charge a couple of grains. Lyman shows 20 gr as a min for 170 gr lead bullets with one exception, which is 18.6 gr. I'm thinking the extra powder, though not a huge amount, may help with position sensitivity and up the pressure a bit to get better consistency. Lyman also says that the 20gr load with a certain bullet is the most accurate load. But that's relative, right? And they did not apparently go below 20 with that bullet.

I was just downstairs doing some rechecks of things like neck tension and the dimensions on my M die plug for the 06. With my SAECO 315 sized to 0.312, I have 0.006 to 0.007 neck tension. Oh yes, I'm not sure why I thought I was using a .313 sizing die. It's a .312. I suspect that is what I wanted to use, but could not fine one available. So the sizer is really just sizing the GC and skimming any high spots off the bottom two lands of the bullet. Gray hair finds new ways to annoy me on a daily basis. But since my bore is actually 0.311, this should be fine.

Another sidenote. I have two targets on my bench from when I was testing the 2400 in the 06. I have some MOA groups at 100 yds and then flyers that are 2 inches away. At the time I posted something about that here and was concerned that the velocity deltas were causing this. Someone piped up that at 100 yds, the deltas I was seeing were not significant and quoted some ballistics chart.

Going back to that testing, I still have the results on my phone. At the time, the results on the paper were what was driving my choice in powder charge. 18gr gave me the best groups. But looking at it now, the SD numbers for the various loads are interesting. The SD and ES both line up with what the target said. So, maybe bumping up to 20 gr would be going backwards based upon the data.

Std. Deviation
17gr - 85
17.5 - 29
18 - 10
18.5 - 14
19 - 16
19.5 - 20
20 - 26

Extreme Spread
17 - 219
17.5 - 29
18 - 29
18.5 - 45
19 - 37
19.5 - 59
20 - 77

 

[CZ93X62]

Another GREAT thread, densely-packed with solid information. I'm here now, so THAT trait will dissipate considerably.

I use A LOT of Alliant 2400. 410 shotguns, magnum revolver calibers, and cast bullet rifle applications. In the 410 and MagRev usages, load density is pretty much a non-issue; it runs at or close to 100%. 2400 under those conditions has not been hard-to-ignite; most load data calls for standard primers rather than magnum caps. I use a lot of ball/spherical powders, and 2400 never occurred to me as being one of those--the "sand grains" descriptor above is a good one.

"Not position-sensitive". I imagine that is a relative thing. In a 30-06 or belted magnum case the condition is likely more aggravated than with the 308 or 223, so I usually elevate the muzzle about 30*-40* above horizontal before each shot if it is safe to do so and the range rules allow it. I have run as much as 23.0 grains of 2400 in the 9.3 x 62 with cast bullets of 270 grains, and the pressure indicia on the case showed gentle gas generation going on. I stayed on 14" dinger plates at 400 meters, too. THAT was a fun match.

16.0-18.0 grains of 2400 has been a boiler-plate load for cast bullets in milsurp rifle calibers for me since I started infesting the Burrito Shoot c. 1996. Milsurps figured highly in most Burrito Shoot cast bulleting, and 2400 was a fixture among us.

 

[Spindrift]

Just a side- note om the shooters world «Buffalo»- powder. If I am not mistaken, these powders are made in the czech Explosia- plant, which sells powders under the brand «Lovex». The Lovex D060 powder was once sold by Accurate as «5744», one of many variations of this powder (which has also been produced in South Africa, Belgium, Israel, the czech republic, Canada). So the problem is; which generation of «5744» is responsible for its excellent reputation as a cast bullet powder?

I guess the Buffalo- powder is the same as Lovex D060.

My experience with D060 (in 308, 223 & 30-06) is not so good. Mediocre accuracy, unburned granules, dirty bore. I bought one jar of powder, and will stick to other powders.

By all means, try the Buffalo powder. But I wouldn’t stock up a huge supply before testing a little.

 

[Snakeoil]

One of the things that I and others struggle with is the wind. No, we are not Raton. But the range is fully encircled with tall pines and the range itself is sand with scrub grass. The wind changes can be frequent and severe with equal velocities going from left to right and then right to left in the blink of an eye. I suspect these are all eddies coming off the treetops or off the back of the berms for head winds and tail winds. The club needs to put more telltales out. Might be up to me to get some bright Dacron fabric and reflag all the posts.

So, I'm thinking of moving up to a heavier bullet, in the 200-220 gr range. Hence my interest in the 311284. Heavier bullets are said to buck the wind better. But in a .30 cal, heavier means longer. And longer bullets do not perform as well thru the transition velocity area according to what I've read, short, fat bullets are supposed to do better. I've got a .38-55 for that and my Shiloh in .45-70 if I'm in the mood for self-abuse.

My point is, the variables are more than just getting a MOA group at 100 yds.

Now to add even more, the boys take a pilgrimage or two to a place called "Dry Lake" (they told me to find them a small boat so, so much for the name) to shoot 1000 yds. I've yet to make that trip, but plan to. It's a hike into the place so you shoot what you can carry. So, a heavier bullet would probably pay off there as well.

But, those are all added tangents to the discussion. Perhaps more neck tension will make the 2400 perform better. Maybe a heavier bullet is the answer to more consistency.

Thanks for the feedback on 5744. I was not aware that powder companies bought other makers powder and sold it as their own. I can see this for nuts and bolts, but for something like smokeless powder, I think I'd want 100% control over the production process for me to put my name on it.

 

[Ian]

I only tried one pound of xmp5744 and promptly gave it back to the person who loaned it to me. Excellent info, Spindrift, I only knew of half of those. 3100 is another powder made on at least three continents whith wide variations in suitability for any particular purpose.

I'm still head scratching over this 03-A3. .311" groove? Two groove? What's the bore dimension? And for a final query than only Mr. Rifle can answer.....does a two-groove bore displace so much material that it is wholly unsutable for powder-coated, bevel-base bullets?

Sure looks like 17.5 to 18 grains of 2400 is right for the gas checked 315.

 

[Spindrift]

A side note on the «wind bucking» capabilities of bullets. And @Snakeoil, please excuse me if I insult your intelligence with things you already know

Mass is important. But so is shape. The bullet’s ability to resist athmospheric forces (wind/resistance) is expressed as a ratio/number called «ballistic coefficient», or «BC». There are layers of complexity here, but the essence is this:

The higher the number, the less wind drift (and less velocity loss).

At the NOE- shop, there are technical drawings of all their bullets. If we look at the 311284- clone, it has sursprisingly low BC, for all it’s mass. Compare it to a more pointy bullet, and the difference becomes quite pronounced. Even the 165 grs XCB bullet has higher BC

 

[GRMPS]

I found that using dacron over 2400 in a 03A3 got me much better accuracy. I read that some people use magnum primers